Varanus melinus husbandry (help!)

[arnoldosu1]

Hello, I know monitor husbandry is still in a learning phase with even the most experienced keepers, especially with the newer monitor species. The monitor that interests me is varanus melinus (aka. yellow or quince monitor).

I am in the process of setting up a new inclosure for a baby! I am starting with an exo-terra (with the opening front doors) that is 36"w x 24"h x 18"d. I know this is only temporary until he/she grows out of it and I do plan on figuring out how to make a solid lid to replace the screen top (though I am open to suggestions as how to best do that!).

My main question is how important is keeping temps and humidity constant? I ask this because I do not plan on keeping my monitor (or him/her keeping me as many monitor keepers say lol) as a display animal, meaning I plan to allow him/her free roam (supervised) around my room and such. With weather permitting I plan on taking him/her outside to get some fresh air and real sunlight! Also it is quite humid here (cincinnati, ohio), so I'm sure they'd like it.

I have talked to a couple of people; one with melinus and other an indicus monitor, who both claim that humidity is only an issue when the monitor isn't given access to a swimming container. Thats my other question: If my monitor always has access to a swimming bowl/container is humidity really as big a factor? I of course plan on providing proper humidity in the inclosure...it is more when he/she is roaming outside of the inclosure that I am concerned.

That brings about another question, though all these questions kind of intertwine with one another. Will the change in temps from his cage properly set up with a basking spot at 100 or so (it is a baby) and cool side being mid 70s...leaving the ambient temp at about 85 and then going to house temps at around mid 60s low 70s pose a potential risk, like respiratory infection? I was planning on having an out of cage basking spot and pool o as to combat the lack of heat and humidity.

Thanks for any and all responses and even for just reading, I know it's kind of a long question that may have no one "correct" answer. Any input would be great!

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

Hello, I know monitor husbandry is still in a learning phase with even the most experienced keepers, especially with the newer monitor species. The monitor that interests me is varanus melinus (aka. yellow or quince monitor).

I am in the process of setting up a new inclosure for a baby! I am starting with an exo-terra (with the opening front doors) that is 36"w x 24"h x 18"d. I know this is only temporary until he/she grows out of it and I do plan on figuring out how to make a solid lid to replace the screen top (though I am open to suggestions as how to best do that!).

My main question is how important is keeping temps and humidity constant? I ask this because I do not plan on keeping my monitor (or him/her keeping me as many monitor keepers say lol) as a display animal, meaning I plan to allow him/her free roam (supervised) around my room and such. With weather permitting I plan on taking him/her outside to get some fresh air and real sunlight! Also it is quite humid here (cincinnati, ohio), so I'm sure they'd like it.

I have talked to a couple of people; one with melinus and other an indicus monitor, who both claim that humidity is only an issue when the monitor isn't given access to a swimming container. Thats my other question: If my monitor always has access to a swimming bowl/container is humidity really as big a factor? I of course plan on providing proper humidity in the inclosure...it is more when he/she is roaming outside of the inclosure that I am concerned.

That brings about another question, though all these questions kind of intertwine with one another. Will the change in temps from his cage properly set up with a basking spot at 100 or so (it is a baby) and cool side being mid 70s...leaving the ambient temp at about 85 and then going to house temps at around mid 60s low 70s pose a potential risk, like respiratory infection? I was planning on having an out of cage basking spot and pool o as to combat the lack of heat and humidity.

Thanks for any and all responses and even for just reading, I know it's kind of a long question that may have no one "correct" answer. Any input would be great!

Its pretty important, I also don't advise you to let a melinus free roam. They are a skittish species, and odds are he won't be tame. You won't have a fun time ripping furniture apart when he dissapears in the framework of your bed or couch. Don't forget that they tend to pee and poop on you when frightened which is typical of this species, and they will scratch your walls and ruin your carpet. They are very quick, and unless he is tractable and handles being on a leash well, I don't advise taking him outside in the beginning. Yes humidity is important, swimming area or not. Just because you provide him with water doesn't mean he doesn't need proper humidity. You need to cut out a piece of plexi glass to fit the top of your cage, or ply wood. These are the easiest solutions and quick fixes. 100 is not hot enough for basking , baby or not. Provide the same husbandry for a baby as you would for an adult. These come straight out of the egg ready for battle. Miniature versions of the adults (with the exclusion of the color change). Mid 60's is too cold, I think 75 is best for your cool end. Melinus are not tegu's or green iguanas. Again, you do NOT want to leave a tegu free roaming in your house. It will destroy your house, probably get away or get injured or stuck in something, or knock over things and set your house on fire.

Edit: about basking, I would say 125 - 140 would be a good range.

[infernalis]

Good advice so far.

Monitors as a whole should not be out of their enclosures for extended periods.

[arnoldosu1]

Thanks for the advice smy and infernalis! I hear you on not letting him free roam when I first get him for sure as odds are he won't be tame...but in time as he (hopefully!) warms up to me and becomes less skittish, I would like to allow him to have some time out of his cage to get more exercise and explore...as I understand monitors are a very curious bunch. Though I do understand that it will largely depend on the monitors individual personality...as they are intelligent animals and are to be treated as individuals.

Also I was thinking plywood for the lid as well, I guess that will be pretty easy. It appears I was wrong about the basking temps for babies...some forums I have read scared me about the risk of burning my monitor's skin especially when babies. Thanks, I will make the basking temp higher. And to be clear when I said mid 60s I was referring to my home's lowest possible temperature not his cage temp.

So in theory, lets say that as my monitor matures he becomes less skittish and friendly. Also assuming he is in a controlled environment outside of his cage...no potential hazards. Also with me providing him with a basking and soaking area (no cold water of course) outside of his cage. Would you still say that being outside of his cage in my room would be unhealthy for him? And what about taking him outside on a nice day? It gets extremely hot and humid in ohio, unbearable at times haha.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

Hello, I know monitor husbandry is still in a learning phase with even the most experienced keepers, especially with the newer monitor species. The monitor that interests me is varanus melinus (aka. yellow or quince monitor).

I am in the process of setting up a new inclosure for a baby! I am starting with an exo-terra (with the opening front doors) that is 36"w x 24"h x 18"d. I know this is only temporary until he/she grows out of it and I do plan on figuring out how to make a solid lid to replace the screen top (though I am open to suggestions as how to best do that!).

My main question is how important is keeping temps and humidity constant? I ask this because I do not plan on keeping my monitor (or him/her keeping me as many monitor keepers say lol) as a display animal, meaning I plan to allow him/her free roam (supervised) around my room and such. With weather permitting I plan on taking him/her outside to get some fresh air and real sunlight! Also it is quite humid here (cincinnati, ohio), so I'm sure they'd like it.

I have talked to a couple of people; one with melinus and other an indicus monitor, who both claim that humidity is only an issue when the monitor isn't given access to a swimming container. Thats my other question: If my monitor always has access to a swimming bowl/container is humidity really as big a factor? I of course plan on providing proper humidity in the inclosure...it is more when he/she is roaming outside of the inclosure that I am concerned.

That brings about another question, though all these questions kind of intertwine with one another. Will the change in temps from his cage properly set up with a basking spot at 100 or so (it is a baby) and cool side being mid 70s...leaving the ambient temp at about 85 and then going to house temps at around mid 60s low 70s pose a potential risk, like respiratory infection? I was planning on having an out of cage basking spot and pool o as to combat the lack of heat and humidity.

Thanks for any and all responses and even for just reading, I know it's kind of a long question that may have no one "correct" answer. Any input would be great!

Hi, I think you need to make a solid, well sealed custom made enclosure from the beginning, the type you`ve mentioned will not be suitable at all in my opinion, and the amount of modifications needed would not be worthwhile.
You mention keeping the monitor in this `til it "outgrows" it, the wild is a HUGE place, it has already "outgrown" that size of tank even as a hatchling!
The main problems will be in getting a suitable temp and humidity gradient, a relatively deep layer of substrate (usually a mix of soil/playsand), and the fact that glass is a very poor insulator (generally speaking). It also offers little "privacy" for the animal which is extremely important for it`s health.
I would say the smallest "raise up" size would be around 5H x 4L x 3W (feet), with approx. 30 to 38cm (12 to 15 inches) of substrate.
You basically need to know two temps; the lowest ambient (air) in the coolest parts @ approx. 24c (75f), then the SURFACE temp at the basking site @ between approx. 50 to 60c (120 to 140f). If you have a (mature) female the substrate will need to be heated to approx the high 70`s to mid 80`sF (26 to 30c) for nesting.
The humidity should range between approx. 50 to 70%, the lower figure will be around the basking area, it may be higher than 70% down in the hides/burrows.
If you`re willing to make or have made a more suitable enclosure, I`m sure we can all offer some constructive advise.
Please do not get the animal until ALL the conditions required to fully support it are in place (and fully tested), their health suffers from day one.

[arnoldosu1]

Originally posted by murrindindi
You mention keeping the monitor in this `til it "outgrows" it, the wild is a HUGE place, it has already "outgrown" that size of tank even as a hatchling!

Hi murrindindi, I appreciate your input. The reason why I got the smaller temporary inclosure was from reading forums and such. My line of thinking is that the smaller inclosure would make the baby monitor feel more secure...kind of like a dogs crate though not to that extent. In addition to a plywood top, I also planned to line the sides and back of the cage with lattice to add, not only climbing space but security and insulation as well. Does this sound good?

The size of my cage or any cage made for a monitor (baby or adult) would be in my opinion be too small for their exercise needs...this is where my 'free roam' idea that I mentioned before, comes in. That along with some outside exercise as well would make for a much better life for the monitor, than just being kept in a large cage. This is of course only my theory...infernalis and others say not to do this, as illustrated here:

Originally posted by infernalis
Monitors as a whole should not be out of their enclosures for extended periods.

In my last post, I proposed this scenario, asking infernalis and others for an explanation of why 'free roam' is a bad idea:

Originally posted by arnoldosu1
So in theory, lets say that as my monitor matures he becomes less skittish and friendly. Also assuming he is in a controlled environment outside of his cage...no potential hazards. Also with me providing him with a basking and soaking area (no cold water of course) outside of his cage. Would you still say that being outside of his cage in my room would be unhealthy for him? And what about taking him outside on a nice day? It gets extremely hot and humid in ohio, unbearable at times haha.

Thanks for all the input guys! The info so far has been helpful, I hope I did the quotes correctly, I'm new to this. Anyways a lot of great info...leading me to other questions but I'll save those as to not get off topic.

Also...

Originally posted by murrindindi
Please do not get the animal until ALL the conditions required to fully support it are in place (and fully tested), their health suffers from day one

Don't worry I won't, that's why I'm on here to make sure I know exactly what I'm doing and can provide a good home for the monitor!

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

Hi murrindindi, I appreciate your input. The reason why I got the smaller temporary inclosure was from reading forums and such. My line of thinking is that the smaller inclosure would make the baby monitor feel more secure...kind of like a dogs crate though not to that extent. In addition to a plywood top, I also planned to line the sides and back of the cage with lattice to add, not only climbing space but security and insulation as well. Does this sound good?

The size of my cage or any cage made for a monitor (baby or adult) would be in my opinion be too small for their exercise needs...this is where my 'free roam' idea that I mentioned before, comes in. That along with some outside exercise as well would make for a much better life for the monitor, than just being kept in a large cage. This is of course only my theory...infernalis and others say not to do this, as illustrated here:
In my last post, I proposed this scenario, asking infernalis and others for an explanation of why 'free roam' is a bad idea:
Thanks for all the input guys! The info so far has been helpful, I hope I did the quotes correctly, I'm new to this. Anyways a lot of great info...leading me to other questions but I'll save those as to not get off topic.
Also...
Don't worry I won't, that's why I'm on here to make sure I know exactly what I'm doing and can provide a good home for the monitor!

Hi again, I wasn`t sure whether you had already got the monitor, it`s nice to know you haven`t just yet!
I take it you don`t want to make a custom built enclosure at this time? If that`s correct my opinion is still the same; the type you are thinking of using is not suitable. A smaller enclosure won`t necessarily make the animal feel more secure, the important thing is to provide lots of hiding places, the monitor should be able to travel around the whole tank almost unseen, there should be lots of cover around the basking and feeding areas in particular.
The idea of allowing a fully acclimated monitor some "outside" time (that doesn`t necessarily mean outdoors) is perfectly acceptable under strict supervision with certain conditions in place (not left unattended). I think Wayne (Infernalis) and the others were only suggesting keeping them outside their supportive enclosures for extended periods could be harmful (insufficient temps, humidity, etc), so extended "free roaming" would probably be unhealthy in the majority of cases (unless you live in a climate very similar to where the monitor originates from).
Ask all the questions you can think of, then ask some more, and ALWAYS question the answers so you understand why something is said to be so....

This is my young (male) Varanus salvator macromaculatus (Asian water monitor), having a few minutes (literally) in the "real" outside (fully contained area).

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5454/8...1c0285c8_z.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8255/8...62e37b6d_z.jpg

[arnoldosu1]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi again, I wasn`t sure whether you had already got the monitor, it`s nice to know you haven`t just yet!
I take it you don`t want to make a custom built enclosure at this time? If that`s correct my opinion is still the same; the type you are thinking of using is not suitable. A smaller enclosure won`t necessarily make the animal feel more secure, the important thing is to provide lots of hiding places, the monitor should be able to travel around the whole tank almost unseen, there should be lots of cover around the basking and feeding areas in particular.
The idea of allowing a fully acclimated monitor some "outside" time (that doesn`t necessarily mean outdoors) is perfectly acceptable under strict supervision with certain conditions in place (not left unattended). I think Wayne (Infernalis) and the others were only suggesting keeping them outside their supportive enclosures for extended periods could be harmful (insufficient temps, humidity, etc), so extended "free roaming" would probably be unhealthy in the majority of cases (unless you live in a climate very similar to where the monitor originates from).
Ask all the questions you can think of, then ask some more, and ALWAYS question the answers so you understand why something is said to be so....

I thought that was a salvator that was in your avatar...looks beautiful!

Here is a link to a video of which I own no rights to. I had briefly talked to the owner, who said 'Misha' (varanus melinus) lived to be 10 years old. After having a very poor start to her life in a 10 gallon tank at the pet store I'd say 10 years is rather remarkable.

(ok well I tried to put the link but it immediately said denied...so look up this in youtube: misha playing.MOV) Huh, I also had to take out you salvator pic links then it let me post.

I bring this up because this housing directly conflicts with what most people as well as you (murrindindi) say to be healthy husbandry. To be clear I'm not trying to contradict you or start an argument...just trying to show people where I'm coming from, as far as my way of thinking. Read the comments on there for more information.

Is this just an anomaly?..or is this proof that maybe humidity isn't as important as providing a sufficient source of water to swim in?

There aren't many people with full grown melinus that I have seen to go by. Maybe melinus and other indicus monitors are unique in that they need water more than humidity?

Let me know what you guys think.

[varanus_mad]

Varanids can survive long periods of time in sub-standard condtions ive know of savs live to be 10 when kept on newspaper however that does not mean it is right nor is it proof of health.

Most dont make it that far and die a slow torterous death i have no doubt had that melinus been kept as above it would of lived much longer.

[arnoldosu1]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Varanids can survive long periods of time in sub-standard condtions ive know of savs live to be 10 when kept on newspaper however that does not mean it is right nor is it proof of health.

Most dont make it that far and die a slow torterous death i have no doubt had that melinus been kept as above it would of lived much longer.

Really? I have heard that they can survive maybe one or two years in substandard conditions, but 10? That's a long time to show no signs of poor health...if that is true than I could keep a monitor for a good portion of my life and never know that I am torturing him?

It would also mean the majority of monitor owners might have no idea what they are doing raising their monitors?..because how many people really have monitors that are 10+ years old?

I expect that under ideal conditions they could live 15-20 years...maybe more is that correct? Please don't take my questioning this response as an insult...I am not saying you are wrong, just that really is a surprising response. Thanks for the input

[smy_749]

There is too much info for me to catch up on this thread because I'm lazy, but I'm sure murrindidi told you all you need to know and more. The only thing I have to say as I noticed you still were curious about free roaming.....

Set up a proper enclosure, get ready for your monitor, and when your baby arrives, tiny as can be, you will realize how much POWER is packed into a little body. And how much pure speed, and razor sharp claws. etc. etc.

Maybe after you realize that you can't hold a monitor who wishes to get away from you, you will reconsider letting him run free. Plus, once they taste freedom, you may have a hard time convincing him to go back in his little box.

[arnoldosu1]

Originally Posted by smy_749

once they taste freedom, you may have a hard time convincing him to go back in his little box.

Haha, well put...that was something that concerned me about my roaming theory.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

Really? I have heard that they can survive maybe one or two years in substandard conditions, but 10? That's a long time to show no signs of poor health...if that is true than I could keep a monitor for a good portion of my life and never know that I am torturing him?

It would also mean the majority of monitor owners might have no idea what they are doing raising their monitors?..because how many people really have monitors that are 10+ years old?

Hi, they don`t need to be 100% fit to live relatively long periods in captivity, and they don`t show ill health to any great degree. Most keepers have a very limited amount of experience and knowledge when they first get them (usually bought on impulse), and wouldn`t know what a healthy/unhealthy monitor looked like anyway).
The Savannah monitor for instance, is usually bought as a first monitor, thousands upon thousands of them die every single year because the conditions offered are so unsupportive (dreadful). They have become "disposable objects".....

[franks]

Partly because you can buy them for $15 and people think they are just a bigger cuddlier bearded dragon. People who spend $300 or more on a monitor are more likely to look into and provide for their needs. There are over a dozen savannah monitors on my local craigslist right now, all look horrible, all in fishtanks.

[crocdoc]

I've just skimmed over this thread and read bits and pieces here and there, but have a few comments to make. I apologise in advance if I sound curt and rude, for that is not my intent. I'm just short on time and want to save you some heartache and grief.

1. For someone just starting out with monitors that wants a monitor for a bit of a free roaming 'pet', buying a wild caught Indonesian species like melinus is generally not a good idea. Aside from being wild caught (or hatched from eggs from wild caught females), they come from areas of high humidity and tend not to do well long term. They are also fairly shy.
2. You can search through youtube and find all sorts of videos, often from people with nicknames like 'dancingkitty', that support any preconceived ideas you have about how you want to keep your monitor, but that doesn't make them correct. I'd be willing to bet that if you told us you wanted to keep your monitor in a blue bucket with a flower pattern you'd be able to find a youtube video showing someone else keeping their monitor in a blue bucket with a flower pattern. Exciting, but not vindicating. It just means two of you are doing it incorrectly, that's all
3. Regarding the following statement...

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

Really? I have heard that they can survive maybe one or two years in substandard conditions, but 10? That's a long time to show no signs of poor health.

.. are you sure the monitor showed perfect health and then dropped dead at 10 years of age for no apparent reason? Is it possible that it declined slowly, either internally or externally/visibly, before dying? 10 years is just a number. It doesn't give any indication of the health of the animal. It is also a low number when discussing lifespan of a large monitor species. I've heard many people boast of long-lived monitors under poor conditions, but when I've seen videos of those monitors during their last few years it was obvious the health was deteriorating. A post mortem of that 10 year old melinus would have revealed visceral gout from chronic dehydration. People that own the monitor will invariably say "everything was perfect, then it died", but if everything were perfect the animal would not be dead.

Now, to answer your questions:

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

if that is true than I could keep a monitor for a good portion of my life and never know that I am torturing him?

Yes.

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

It would also mean the majority of monitor owners might have no idea what they are doing raising their monitors?

Yes.

I've kept monitors for a fair number of years and have spent a lot of time around assorted monitor forums. Over the years there have been many keepers posting about long-term, free roaming 'pet' monitors dying apparently suddenly, usually at the age of 5-6 years, sometimes longer. The keepers always seem surprised and claim it must have been some congenital condition (which, strangely, doesn't leave the wilds strewn with the carcasses of monitors which have died from similar random-death congenital issues). Almost always it is long term dehydration related issues.