Varanus melinus husbandry (help!)

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

Hi murrindindi, I appreciate your input. The reason why I got the smaller temporary inclosure was from reading forums and such. My line of thinking is that the smaller inclosure would make the baby monitor feel more secure...kind of like a dogs crate though not to that extent. In addition to a plywood top, I also planned to line the sides and back of the cage with lattice to add, not only climbing space but security and insulation as well. Does this sound good?

The size of my cage or any cage made for a monitor (baby or adult) would be in my opinion be too small for their exercise needs...this is where my 'free roam' idea that I mentioned before, comes in. That along with some outside exercise as well would make for a much better life for the monitor, than just being kept in a large cage. This is of course only my theory...infernalis and others say not to do this, as illustrated here:
In my last post, I proposed this scenario, asking infernalis and others for an explanation of why 'free roam' is a bad idea:
Thanks for all the input guys! The info so far has been helpful, I hope I did the quotes correctly, I'm new to this. Anyways a lot of great info...leading me to other questions but I'll save those as to not get off topic.
Also...
Don't worry I won't, that's why I'm on here to make sure I know exactly what I'm doing and can provide a good home for the monitor!

Hi again, I wasn`t sure whether you had already got the monitor, it`s nice to know you haven`t just yet!
I take it you don`t want to make a custom built enclosure at this time? If that`s correct my opinion is still the same; the type you are thinking of using is not suitable. A smaller enclosure won`t necessarily make the animal feel more secure, the important thing is to provide lots of hiding places, the monitor should be able to travel around the whole tank almost unseen, there should be lots of cover around the basking and feeding areas in particular.
The idea of allowing a fully acclimated monitor some "outside" time (that doesn`t necessarily mean outdoors) is perfectly acceptable under strict supervision with certain conditions in place (not left unattended). I think Wayne (Infernalis) and the others were only suggesting keeping them outside their supportive enclosures for extended periods could be harmful (insufficient temps, humidity, etc), so extended "free roaming" would probably be unhealthy in the majority of cases (unless you live in a climate very similar to where the monitor originates from).
Ask all the questions you can think of, then ask some more, and ALWAYS question the answers so you understand why something is said to be so....

This is my young (male) Varanus salvator macromaculatus (Asian water monitor), having a few minutes (literally) in the "real" outside (fully contained area).

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5454/8...1c0285c8_z.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8255/8...62e37b6d_z.jpg

[arnoldosu1]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi again, I wasn`t sure whether you had already got the monitor, it`s nice to know you haven`t just yet!
I take it you don`t want to make a custom built enclosure at this time? If that`s correct my opinion is still the same; the type you are thinking of using is not suitable. A smaller enclosure won`t necessarily make the animal feel more secure, the important thing is to provide lots of hiding places, the monitor should be able to travel around the whole tank almost unseen, there should be lots of cover around the basking and feeding areas in particular.
The idea of allowing a fully acclimated monitor some "outside" time (that doesn`t necessarily mean outdoors) is perfectly acceptable under strict supervision with certain conditions in place (not left unattended). I think Wayne (Infernalis) and the others were only suggesting keeping them outside their supportive enclosures for extended periods could be harmful (insufficient temps, humidity, etc), so extended "free roaming" would probably be unhealthy in the majority of cases (unless you live in a climate very similar to where the monitor originates from).
Ask all the questions you can think of, then ask some more, and ALWAYS question the answers so you understand why something is said to be so....

I thought that was a salvator that was in your avatar...looks beautiful!

Here is a link to a video of which I own no rights to. I had briefly talked to the owner, who said 'Misha' (varanus melinus) lived to be 10 years old. After having a very poor start to her life in a 10 gallon tank at the pet store I'd say 10 years is rather remarkable.

(ok well I tried to put the link but it immediately said denied...so look up this in youtube: misha playing.MOV) Huh, I also had to take out you salvator pic links then it let me post.

I bring this up because this housing directly conflicts with what most people as well as you (murrindindi) say to be healthy husbandry. To be clear I'm not trying to contradict you or start an argument...just trying to show people where I'm coming from, as far as my way of thinking. Read the comments on there for more information.

Is this just an anomaly?..or is this proof that maybe humidity isn't as important as providing a sufficient source of water to swim in?

There aren't many people with full grown melinus that I have seen to go by. Maybe melinus and other indicus monitors are unique in that they need water more than humidity?

Let me know what you guys think.

[varanus_mad]

Varanids can survive long periods of time in sub-standard condtions ive know of savs live to be 10 when kept on newspaper however that does not mean it is right nor is it proof of health.

Most dont make it that far and die a slow torterous death i have no doubt had that melinus been kept as above it would of lived much longer.

[arnoldosu1]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Varanids can survive long periods of time in sub-standard condtions ive know of savs live to be 10 when kept on newspaper however that does not mean it is right nor is it proof of health.

Most dont make it that far and die a slow torterous death i have no doubt had that melinus been kept as above it would of lived much longer.

Really? I have heard that they can survive maybe one or two years in substandard conditions, but 10? That's a long time to show no signs of poor health...if that is true than I could keep a monitor for a good portion of my life and never know that I am torturing him?

It would also mean the majority of monitor owners might have no idea what they are doing raising their monitors?..because how many people really have monitors that are 10+ years old?

I expect that under ideal conditions they could live 15-20 years...maybe more is that correct? Please don't take my questioning this response as an insult...I am not saying you are wrong, just that really is a surprising response. Thanks for the input

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

Really? I have heard that they can survive maybe one or two years in substandard conditions, but 10? That's a long time to show no signs of poor health...if that is true than I could keep a monitor for a good portion of my life and never know that I am torturing him?

It would also mean the majority of monitor owners might have no idea what they are doing raising their monitors?..because how many people really have monitors that are 10+ years old?

Hi, they don`t need to be 100% fit to live relatively long periods in captivity, and they don`t show ill health to any great degree. Most keepers have a very limited amount of experience and knowledge when they first get them (usually bought on impulse), and wouldn`t know what a healthy/unhealthy monitor looked like anyway).
The Savannah monitor for instance, is usually bought as a first monitor, thousands upon thousands of them die every single year because the conditions offered are so unsupportive (dreadful). They have become "disposable objects".....

[crocdoc]

I've just skimmed over this thread and read bits and pieces here and there, but have a few comments to make. I apologise in advance if I sound curt and rude, for that is not my intent. I'm just short on time and want to save you some heartache and grief.

1. For someone just starting out with monitors that wants a monitor for a bit of a free roaming 'pet', buying a wild caught Indonesian species like melinus is generally not a good idea. Aside from being wild caught (or hatched from eggs from wild caught females), they come from areas of high humidity and tend not to do well long term. They are also fairly shy.
2. You can search through youtube and find all sorts of videos, often from people with nicknames like 'dancingkitty', that support any preconceived ideas you have about how you want to keep your monitor, but that doesn't make them correct. I'd be willing to bet that if you told us you wanted to keep your monitor in a blue bucket with a flower pattern you'd be able to find a youtube video showing someone else keeping their monitor in a blue bucket with a flower pattern. Exciting, but not vindicating. It just means two of you are doing it incorrectly, that's all
3. Regarding the following statement...

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

Really? I have heard that they can survive maybe one or two years in substandard conditions, but 10? That's a long time to show no signs of poor health.

.. are you sure the monitor showed perfect health and then dropped dead at 10 years of age for no apparent reason? Is it possible that it declined slowly, either internally or externally/visibly, before dying? 10 years is just a number. It doesn't give any indication of the health of the animal. It is also a low number when discussing lifespan of a large monitor species. I've heard many people boast of long-lived monitors under poor conditions, but when I've seen videos of those monitors during their last few years it was obvious the health was deteriorating. A post mortem of that 10 year old melinus would have revealed visceral gout from chronic dehydration. People that own the monitor will invariably say "everything was perfect, then it died", but if everything were perfect the animal would not be dead.

Now, to answer your questions:

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

if that is true than I could keep a monitor for a good portion of my life and never know that I am torturing him?

Yes.

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

It would also mean the majority of monitor owners might have no idea what they are doing raising their monitors?

Yes.

I've kept monitors for a fair number of years and have spent a lot of time around assorted monitor forums. Over the years there have been many keepers posting about long-term, free roaming 'pet' monitors dying apparently suddenly, usually at the age of 5-6 years, sometimes longer. The keepers always seem surprised and claim it must have been some congenital condition (which, strangely, doesn't leave the wilds strewn with the carcasses of monitors which have died from similar random-death congenital issues). Almost always it is long term dehydration related issues.

[smy_749]

Nice to see you again david, any updates or pics for us?

[arnoldosu1]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

I'd be willing to bet that if you told us you wanted to keep your monitor in a blue bucket with a flower pattern you'd be able to find a youtube video showing someone else keeping their monitor in a blue bucket with a flower pattern.

Point well taken crocdoc...I will go find a pretty bucket and keep a monitor in it!...haha no but that is why I wanted to discus these things with experienced keepers, so as to not just go by what supports my preconceived notions. It makes the most sense to emulate a monitor's natural habitat as closely as possible...anything else like you said could lead to health concerns and would be selfish on my part. So with that in mind I agree there is no reason to risk poor health or worse death.

Thank you for your input crocdoc, I've seen your name on other forums and such. It would appear you know what you are talking about.

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by arnoldosu1

Thank you for your input crocdoc

You're welcome. I'm glad you didn't take it the wrong way. Have you considered any of the species from slightly drier areas, like gouldii or even panoptes (which, admittedly, are found both in dry and humid areas)? They are not only a bit more tolerant of dry conditions but are also less shy.

Originally Posted by smy_749

Nice to see you again david, any updates or pics for us?

It's winter here, so not much happening with my monitors or the wild ones. This is the time of year I have a break from monitors.