Stage 3 (Dry Season)

[formica]

Originally Posted by infernalis

I know of one that is seven years old, and still walks tall with a proud strut like my animals. The coolest part, the owner does not even think he's done anything special.... just take care of his lizard.

I hear some claims of 10 year old animals, but no proof.

I've seen claims of an 11 year old being the oldest ever in captivity, and a 17 year old, no mention of whether that was CB/WF/WC however, and no links or references to said animals or their carers

the average lifespans offered by most sources is 10-15 years, but again, without any actual references

I have also seen claims of upto 25 years and above, still no refrences

none of this, combined with the 7 year olds you know, or the 10 years that are claimed, adds up to a good lifespan when comparing wild and captive animals, my very limited knowledge is telling me that actually their lifespans in the wild and captivity are pretty similar, which is a concern given the variation in husbundary

I think a survey is order, to find out for sure - if I draw one up, infernalis (and everyone else) would you be willing to pass it around to those you know? I'll keep it simple and under 60 seconds completion time...

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by formica

loooking to build some kind of Tardis enclosure?



you are aware that proof occurs after testing, yes? Not before.

The links you keep talking about..

[formica]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

The links you keep talking about..

#

i've referred to several studies, which in particular? i've posted them all up previously on other threads around this topic, here are the IGF1 & DNA repair links:

You can probably find the science program "Horizon: Eat, Fast and Live Longer" to watch somewhere online if you are interested, it goes into much more depth, very interesting stuff.

an outline can be read here, but the program is much more indepth and very interesting: BBC News - The power of intermittent fasting (IGF1, fasting and aging)

one of the scientific studies used for the program:

Intermittent fasting dissociates beneficial effects of dietary restriction on glucose metabolism and neuronal resistance to injury from calorie intake (IGF1, fasting and aging)

[red ink]

Do ectothermic animals posses IGF1 like endothermic animals?

[formica]

Originally Posted by red ink

Do ectothermic animals posses IGF1 like endothermic animals?

yes it is found in many snakes and lizards (i do not know if it is found in all of them, or if that has been looked into), and is known to play some of the same roles, but it hasn't been studied completely, and not specifically in varanids that I am aware of

[red ink]

Originally Posted by formica

yes it is found in many snakes and lizards (i do not know if it is found in all of them, or if that has been looked into), and is known to play some of the same roles, but it hasn't been studied completely, and not specifically in varanids that I am aware of

So if you're not sure if it is found in all ectothermic animals, and is only known to play some of the same roles as well as it not being known in varanids specifically... let alone in Varanus exanthematicus


The point of the experiment is what again?

[formica]

Originally Posted by red ink

So if you're not sure if it is found in all ectothermic animals, and is only known to play some of the same roles as well as it not being known in varanids specifically... let alone in Varanus exanthematicus


The point of the experiment is what again?

it is only known to play some of the same roles, because not all of the roles have been studied, that is not the same thing as knowing that it does not play all the same roles.

IGF1 is only one small part of the picture. and no, I am not going to explain it again...its all there in the thread prior to this post.

[red ink]

Originally Posted by formica

it is only known to play some of the same roles, because not all of the roles have been studied, that is not the same thing as knowing that it does not play all the same roles.

IGF1 is only one small part of the picture. and no, I am not going to explain it again...its all there in the thread prior to this post.

The explanations is in this thread or another thread? Can you link the other thread is theres another one?

If IGF1 is only a small part of the picture what's the rest of the picture look like?

Why specifically mention genetic repair and go into IGF1... citing endothermic experiments?

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by red ink

So if you're not sure if it is found in all ectothermic animals, and is only known to play some of the same roles as well as it not being known in varanids specifically... let alone in Varanus exanthematicus


The point of the experiment is what again?

To wad everyone's panties into a tight little bunch.

That's my guess anyways

[formica]

Originally Posted by red ink

The explanations is in this thread or another thread? Can you link the other thread is theres another one?

If IGF1 is only a small part of the picture what's the rest of the picture look like?

Why specifically mention genetic repair and go into IGF1... citing endothermic experiments?

It is all in this thread, and there are I think 2 other threads on the topic somewhere in this part of the forum which cite various sources. not going to go over this any more, its all on previous pages if you want to read it.

[red ink]

Originally Posted by formica

It is all in this thread, and there are I think 2 other threads on the topic somewhere in this part of the forum which cite various sources. not going to go over this any more, its all on previous pages if you want to read it.

Yeah I read this thread several times now trying to find what I may have missed...

You have no hypothesis in your so called "experiment" in the first post.

You conclude by saying....

Originally Posted by formica

Long term? Who knows, it is difficult to measure genetic repair without lots of money, but studies have shown that fasting is an important trigger for genetic repair, so potentially, increased life span, but with just one Sav, in one setup with, one set of environmental conditions, designed by someone new to monitors, its impossible to measure this properly...for now

You have also said twice now that it's all in here... what's in here mate?
The only real thing you cited is IGF1... I asked you about it and you said it only a small part...

Originally Posted by formica

There is not really enough data on what monitors do during dry season, although they are known to not be totally inactive, it is debatable how much they eat or what activities they continue doing - if they do fast, and have evolved to do so, I feel that it is probably an important part of their physiology

So your basing the premise of your "experiment" on what exactly?

What is the purpose of this experiment?

[formica]

Originally Posted by red ink

Yeah I read this thread several times now

again, its all there...

Originally Posted by formica

When an animals metabolism changes, all sorts of things change in its physiology, and for many animals, the changes can be very important and beneficial.

When a monitor is forced to escape the harsh above ground conditions, to the cool humid conditions of a burrow, its metabolism slows, simply because it is cooled down, this might be important, after all, they do it for months at a time, and nature does not do things simply for the sake of it, it takes advantage of everything in its environment and adapts to those conditions in ways which often are not apparently logically, at first - we dont know, it hasnt been studied in monitors, or if it has, I havent found it published anywhere, nor has anyone that I have asked about it - but it has been studied in many other , reptiles, mammals and invertebrates, and in some cases been found to not only be beneficial, but in some cases, essential

If food is withheld, but the same temperature and humidity is provided, it will not force the monitor to retreat to a cool and humid area, because it will remain active and searching for food, therefore its metabolism will not change, and so the physiological changes associated with a lowered metabolism, which it has evolved to deal with and which may have a beneficial affect (as it does in many other animals), do not occur.

I have been asking for months, for people to give me tempreture readings from inside burrows, and have gathered as many as I could from peoples wild observations, and used them to come up with the model for the cool and humid burrowing area to which my Sav can escape too from the dry and hot area

Testing DNA repair is not practical or within my budget, although testing for the hormones involved might be, i plan on discussing that with the vet tomorrow


How will i know if its successful? Well you are right, it is very difficult to give a firm answer to that, there could be obvious positives or obvious negatives, or there may be no discernible differences. time will tell

[red ink]

Originally Posted by formica

again, its all there...

Ok cool now I get you...

see... I was stuck on this though point...

Originally Posted by formica

There is not really enough data on what monitors do during dry season, although they are known to not be totally inactive, it is debatable how much they eat or what activities they continue doing - if they do fast, and have evolved to do so, I feel that it is probably an important part of their physiology

Your point in red... from a scientific methodology factor since your basing your experiment on dry season behaviours and their proposed benefits kinda voids the whole thing and that's on page 1 of this thread.

Originally Posted by formica

When a monitor is forced to escape the harsh above ground conditions, to the cool humid conditions of a burrow, its metabolism slows, simply because it is cooled down, this might be important, after all, they do it for months at a time, and nature does not do things simply for the sake of it, it takes advantage of everything in its environment and adapts to those conditions in ways which often are not apparently logically, at first - we dont know, it hasnt been studied in monitors, or if it has, I havent found it published anywhere, nor has anyone that I have asked about it - but it has been studied in many other , reptiles, mammals and invertebrates, and in some cases been found to not only be beneficial, but in some cases, essential

If food is withheld, but the same temperature and humidity is provided, it will not force the monitor to retreat to a cool and humid area, because it will remain active and searching for food, therefore its metabolism will not change, and so the physiological changes associated with a lowered metabolism, which it has evolved to deal with and which may have a beneficial affect (as it does in many other animals), do not occur.

I have been asking for months, for people to give me tempreture readings from inside burrows, and have gathered as many as I could from peoples wild observations, and used them to come up with the model for the cool and humid burrowing area to which my Sav can escape too from the dry and hot area

Seeing as you have no data to support varanids even do this.... yet your going to base an experiment on the assumption that they do and its "benefits"

good luck with that bud.

P.S. I like the fact that you've based genetic repair and linking it to IGF1 on speculation that varanids have it or that it even plays that same role if present.... knowing you have no means of testing it!

In the immortal words of Jesse Pinkman

[formica]

Originally Posted by red ink

see... I was stuck on tho point...

maybe some confusion here, the data regarding the way the environment/climate changes during diffrent seasons, is easy to find, we know how the temps and humidity changes both above and below ground.

observations are fairly clear that Sav's activities are reduced during dry season aswell, they are much harder to find during dry season, unless you go around digging up burrows, there are indications of some activity, and the occasional one can be spotted up a tree, but on the whole, they need to be dug up.

Their seasonal behavioral patterns are well understood by locals, as Savs are an important source of protein - they do not migrate to find food or ''optimal conditions'', they goto ground and wait for the rains...why? many animals which hibernate have some physiological benefit from doing so, because evolution does not waste energy or doing things for the sake of it

what I ment by data not being available, is that the physiological changes which occur as a result of the climate changes, have not been well studied and are not well understood

RE IGF1, you cant expect me to cover everything, i dont have that kind of budget, but IGF1 is important, and until people ask the question, no one is ever going to come up with an answer, are they. first questions....then answers, that, is science.

[red ink]

Originally Posted by formica

RE IGF1, you cant expect me to cover everything, i dont have that kind of budget, but IGF1 is important, and until people ask the question, no one is ever going to come up with an answer, are they. first questions....then answers, that, is science.

Actually...
If you can't answer it in your experiment or test for it then don't make a point of it. If you factor it in as a basis knowing you can't test it or prove it... it ain't science, it's speculations. By all means ask away just don't call it science... it's just a question.