The yellow rat snake that may enjoy some human contact. - Page 3

Cory · 05-31-13, 02:31 PM

I would like to thank those of you who have posted appropriate responses to my initial question. They have been valuable to read and I now see patterns of behaviour that are similar to the ones I posted about.

Sadly, many of these same posts bear personal attacks and all too frequently insults have come up. I was under the impression that such invectives were not to be tolerated on this website, but evidence to the contrary is ample. There is no cause for me to address each one, particularly because there are so many. Hopefully, though, this situation can be addressed and corrected so that a sense of community and information sharing can be enhanced. I have asked the administrators for their assistance in this matter.

I continue to encourage anyone who has any reports of behaviours or interactions that snakes seem to experience in a positive way, and/or interpretations of these phenomena, to share them on this thread, please. My goal is to make the captive lives of snakes less stressful and more pleasant for them and to encourage those people who keep snakes to have a higher rate of behavioural success with them. If this is from a viewpoint of "love, fine. If it is from the perspective of classic conditioning, fine. The same goes for any viewpoint. The evidence, anecdotal or not, is much appreciated and I hope will go toward improving the lives of snakes and their keepers.

Thank you,
Cory

**Aaron_S** · 05-31-13, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory

I would like to thank those of you who have posted appropriate responses to my initial question. They have been valuable to read and I now see patterns of behaviour that are similar to the ones I posted about.

Sadly, many of these same posts bear personal attacks and all too frequently insults have come up. I was under the impression that such invectives were not to be tolerated on this website, but evidence to the contrary is ample. There is no cause for me to address each one, particularly because there are so many. Hopefully, though, this situation can be addressed and corrected so that a sense of community and information sharing can be enhanced. I have asked the administrators for their assistance in this matter.

I continue to encourage anyone who has any reports of behaviours or interactions that snakes seem to experience in a positive way, and/or interpretations of these phenomena, to share them on this thread, please. My goal is to make the captive lives of snakes less stressful and more pleasant for them and to encourage those people who keep snakes to have a higher rate of behavioural success with them. If this is from a viewpoint of "love, fine. If it is from the perspective of classic conditioning, fine. The same goes for any viewpoint. The evidence, anecdotal or not, is much appreciated and I hope will go toward improving the lives of snakes and their keepers.

Thank you,
Cory

Simple for the bold and underlined part. Don't mess with them. Meet their environment needs and voila. Less stress.

Cory · 05-31-13, 02:57 PM

Thank you Aaron_S. I know this is a slight deviation from the original goal of this thread but what sort of environmental conditions would you advise?

In the case of Lily we noticed that he seemed to be disturbed by movement over top of him. Since his vivarium was at floor level and in a busy part of the home we decided to cover the top so that he wouldn't be able to see motion over top of him on a regular basis. It worked and he calmed down.

After further research we realized that he may be somewhat arboreal and that he might benefit from a cage that was taller than it was long, with many things to climb and perch upon. My girlfriend did a great job in setting up his new home that has (from highest to lowest) four rings to climb in at the top, two baskets for perches mid way down, and plastic PVC piping underneath his substrate for a burrow.

He has taken very well to his new home and has been living in it for a few years now. He is generally calmer and no longer seems interested in trying out another environment. Previously, in his old vivarium, he had gotten out twice. Both times he sought to go higher up and was found in our closet having nestled himself among folded clothes. He still likes to burrow around in the substrate when in spring and when it is freshly changed. Other than that his escape tendencies have decreased and I have not noticed any attempts to find a weak spot to escape through.

**Aaron_S** · 05-31-13, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory

Thank you Aaron_S. I know this is a slight deviation from the original goal of this thread but what sort of environmental conditions would you advise?

In the case of Lily we noticed that he seemed to be disturbed by movement over top of him. Since his vivarium was at floor level and in a busy part of the home we decided to cover the top so that he wouldn't be able to see motion over top of him on a regular basis. It worked and he calmed down.

After further research we realized that he may be somewhat arboreal and that he might benefit from a cage that was taller than it was long, with many things to climb and perch upon. My girlfriend did a great job in setting up his new home that has (from highest to lowest) four rings to climb in at the top, two baskets for perches mid way down, and plastic PVC piping underneath his substrate for a burrow.

He has taken very well to his new home and has been living in it for a few years now. He is generally calmer and no longer seems interested in trying out another environment. Previously, in his old vivarium, he had gotten out twice. Both times he sought to go higher up and was found in our closet having nestled himself among folded clothes. He still likes to burrow around in the substrate when in spring and when it is freshly changed. Other than that his escape tendencies have decreased and I have not noticed any attempts to find a weak spot to escape through.

Bold and underlined is technically a loaded question. It depends on the species and I have no idea what species you're talking about.

If it's terrestrial then yes, anything above would seem like a predator coming at them.

**Aaron_S** · 05-31-13, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory

I would like to thank those of you who have posted appropriate responses to my initial question. They have been valuable to read and I now see patterns of behaviour that are similar to the ones I posted about.

Sadly, many of these same posts bear personal attacks and all too frequently insults have come up. I was under the impression that such invectives were not to be tolerated on this website, but evidence to the contrary is ample. There is no cause for me to address each one, particularly because there are so many. Hopefully, though, this situation can be addressed and corrected so that a sense of community and information sharing can be enhanced. I have asked the administrators for their assistance in this matter.

I continue to encourage anyone who has any reports of behaviours or interactions that snakes seem to experience in a positive way, and/or interpretations of these phenomena, to share them on this thread, please. My goal is to make the captive lives of snakes less stressful and more pleasant for them and to encourage those people who keep snakes to have a higher rate of behavioural success with them. If this is from a viewpoint of "love, fine. If it is from the perspective of classic conditioning, fine. The same goes for any viewpoint. The evidence, anecdotal or not, is much appreciated and I hope will go toward improving the lives of snakes and their keepers.

Thank you,
Cory

I'll respond to the rest now.

When you decide that heresay (which is all you and others who share your views are going on) decide to actually do research and be open minded to the fact you may be wrong then we can continue this debate.

Until then, I'll never take the story of someone who just wants to believe their animal has a higher intelligence and tries to prove it be saying basic instinct is some sort of "love" or other emotion. Every snake action can be easily put to a basic instinct.

Cory · 05-31-13, 05:27 PM

Aaron_S,

My apologies if I was unclear about what kind of snake I was asking about. I was referring both to the yellow rat snake (Elaphe obsoleta rossalleni) featured in the thread's title and also anything generally that you thought was worth noting. The contribution you provided was a general one and thereby appreciated.

I was not aware that this would become a debate and never intended it to be so. I was only interested in viewpoints on the thread topic; "The yellow rat snake that may enjoy some human contact" and thank you for your contribution.

**Aaron_S** · 05-31-13, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory

Aaron_S,

My apologies if I was unclear about what kind of snake I was asking about. I was referring both to the yellow rat snake (Elaphe obsoleta rossalleni) featured in the thread's title and also anything generally that you thought was worth noting. The contribution you provided was a general one and thereby appreciated.

I was not aware that this would become a debate and never intended it to be so. I was only interested in viewpoints on the thread topic; "The yellow rat snake that may enjoy some human contact" and thank you for your contribution.

debate? viewpoints? All the same.

I would really like to see someone back up their "viewpoints" instead of the blind leading the blind.

I don't know enough about that species but give the required needs for the species and all is golden. They stress less. It's very visible in the snake's demeanour.

smy_749 · 05-31-13, 08:34 PM

Sorry to derail your thread Cory :S I couldn't resist responding to some of the stories.

**Aaron_S** · 05-31-13, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smy_749

Sorry to derail your thread Cory :S I couldn't resist responding to some of the stories.

Derailed?

I think it was an appropriate message to keep a lot of new keepers from drinking this kind of kool-aid.

smy_749 · 06-01-13, 05:34 AM

Yea maybe.
Cory, Im not sorry anymore . lol

Cory · 06-01-13, 09:52 AM

I asked for people to freely share their viewpoints, evidence, and interpretations on the topic. All people, and I would greatly prefer if no one were to feel that their contributions would be unwelcome. I think this forum is a good place for such a free-flow of ideas since Rule 3 of sSnakeSs.com states:

"3. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. We take politeness very seriously. You are welcome to challenge others points of view and opinions, but do so respectively and thoughtfully."

On this basis I encourage all personal attacks and labeling others as "stupid" to be refrained from and expect civility and respect of diversity.

**Aaron_S** · 06-01-13, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory

I asked for people to freely share their viewpoints, evidence, and interpretations on the topic. All people, and I would greatly prefer if no one were to feel that their contributions would be unwelcome. I think this forum is a good place for such a free-flow of ideas since Rule 3 of sSnakeSs.com states:

"3. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. We take politeness very seriously. You are welcome to challenge others points of view and opinions, but do so respectively and thoughtfully."

On this basis I encourage all personal attacks and labeling others as "stupid" to be refrained from and expect civility and respect of diversity.

So those that share a differing opinion are not allowed to speak in a thread? Just because you make a thread it doesn't mean the topic isn't allowed to deviate based on the discussion.

I have not made any personal attacks but I'd like to point out that no one has respected my diversity that I'm right and everyone who disagrees is wrong.

KORBIN5895 · 06-01-13, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory

I asked for people to freely share their viewpoints, evidence, and interpretations on the topic. All people, and I would greatly prefer if no one were to feel that their contributions would be unwelcome. I think this forum is a good place for such a free-flow of ideas since Rule 3 of sSnakeSs.com states:

"3. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. We take politeness very seriously. You are welcome to challenge others points of view and opinions, but do so respectively and thoughtfully."

On this basis I encourage all personal attacks and labeling others as "stupid" to be refrained from and expect civility and respect of diversity.

Are you telling me that we shouldn't call people what they are? If someone is doing something foolish we would call them a fool. If someone is picking on another person we call them a bully. When someone can't formulate a legitimate scientific argument to support their view but instead use pointless and totally irrelevant stories and unknown sources ghats pretty asinine and really stupid. Support your theory with facts first and observations seconds.

StudentoReptile · 06-01-13, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

Are you telling me that we shouldn't call people what they are? If someone is doing something foolish we would call them a fool. If someone is picking on another person we call them a bully. When someone can't formulate a legitimate scientific argument to support their view but instead use pointless and totally irrelevant stories and unknown sources ghats pretty asinine and really stupid. Support your theory with facts first and observations seconds.

There is the truth, and calling people out when there are holes in their advice...and then there is flat-out excessive, unnecessary insulting. For example, I will not hesitate to question information I feel is inaccurate, or in the least, unfounded on facts. I may even call the person ignorant, and bluntly tell them they do not know what they are talking about. I try to refrain from name-calling (Ex: idiot, stupid, moron, etc....). The exception is labeling someone a troll or a cyber-bully, when the term is applicable.

That said, in my book, I personally define stupidity as follows: the deliberate choice to remain ignorant; to purposefully ignore sound advice and the wisdom of those more experienced than one's self.

smy_749 · 06-01-13, 08:00 PM

I don't think I actually said 'your stupid' if that counts for anything. I don't regret what I said, or take back any of my 'insults' though. I meant what I said, I only apologized because I thought this thread was for another purpose (I don't know what, but I was under the impression I derailed it from the original topic). If thats not the case, and I was on topic then great. Also, in my books, name calling is just blurting out insults. And to studentofreptile, I think your definition of stupid could be applied numerous times in this thread, so I guess I was justified :P