Why is this considered acceptable?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

@ Aaron: Come on now, name calling is unnecessary. I overfeed a couple of my animals when they are building and if they will take food when they are gravid. I've had no slugs , no birth defects, 100% hatch rate and the female adults all are healthy and resume a normal feeding schedule. Moronic? That is really a insult.

1. You've bred for about a year or two. It's a small sample size to consider everything in your practice as "successful". You're on the right track though so good for you.

2. That doesn't constitute overfeeding. I feed my breeding females weekly and usually 15% body weight and sometimes 20% if it's a female who has been bred a few years in a row. I don't consitute animals going to be using a large amount of their energy and body and fed a little more to aide in that as overfeeding.

3. If you can't tell the difference between what I mean by overfeeding and what you do then that's on you and how you read my posts. I can't be held responsible for what you understand.

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Big snake girl you are making the assumption that all snakes need the same amount of enrichment and space relative to size. Snakes occupy many different niches in the wild so this is simply not true. If a ball python thrives well in a space you deem to small than isn't it really more of an opinion at that piont? If I am being honest an opinion you do not seem to have much proof of.

Bingo! I don't feel the need to explain anything beyond what has been said here.

[Aaron_S]

Final Warning


No reason to have any petty debates or shots at each other. Debate the topic at hand in a reasonable manner or I'll begin the time outs.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Big snake girl you are making the assumption that all snakes need the same amount of enrichment and space relative to size. Snakes occupy many different niches in the wild so this is simply not true. If a ball python thrives well in a space you deem to small than isn't it really more of an opinion at that piont? If I am being honest an opinion you do not seem to have much proof of.

It doesn't matter how much enrichment a species needs, space should be offered regardless. Only fossorial snakes spend the majority of their time underground doing nothing. Even ball pythons, which people like to spread the myth they spend their lives in burrows, spend a good amount of time moving around in the wild. In fact, there are localities of ball pythons where the males spend their entire lives in the trees hunting birds, and only come down to mate. The females move to the ground when they reach a certain size to hunt mammals.

The majority of pythons and boas don't need quite as much as say, an active colubrid. Here I would differentiate by advising Lenght+Width=snake's length (and generally 18-24" of height) for the boids, and Length=snake's length for an active species like a corn or other ratsnake. Sure, not all need the same space, and I never implied it, but all (short of fossorials) should be allowed a base line of more than 1/3-1/2 their length.

I also don't see how saying snakes should be allowed space is antropomorphising (not saying you're saying this MesoCorney), nothing about that is ascribing human characteristics to them.

[FWK]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

In fact, there are localities of ball pythons where the males spend their entire lives in the trees hunting birds, and only come down to mate. The females move to the ground when they reach a certain size to hunt mammals.

Citation? I've never heard of this and would very much like to know more.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

1. You've bred for about a year or two. It's a small sample size to consider everything in your practice as "successful". You're on the right track though so good for
2. That doesn't constitute overfeeding. I feed my breeding females weekly and usually 15% body weight and sometimes 20% if it's a female who has been bred a few years in a row. I don't consitute animals going to be using a large amount of their energy and body and fed a little more to aide in that as overfeeding.

3. If you can't tell the difference between what I mean by overfeeding and what you do then that's on you and how you read my posts. I can't be held responsible for what you understand.



Bingo! I don't feel the need to explain anything beyond what has been said here.

Wrong! I've been breeding for six years. Garter and king snakes for 4 years and ball pythons for the past 2 years. However I have owned all three species for over a a decade and a half or more.
Ok. I posted a picture of my pastel female breeding my pied and I know she is huge ai 2200 grams. I know that I have been pumping her and my albino female who is being paired as well. They are both still taking food so I know they are both being overfed.
I know what you mean by over feeding. You didn't clarify or exclude the times when breeding. Thanks.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Wrong! I've been breeding for six years. Garter and king snakes for 4 years and ball pythons for the past 2 years. However I have owned all three species for over a a decade and a half or more.
Ok. I posted a picture of my pastel female breeding my pied and I know she is huge ai 2200 grams. I know that I have been pumping her and my albino female who is being paired as well. They are both still taking food so I know they are both being overfed.
I know what you mean by over feeding. You didn't clarify or exclude the times when breeding. Thanks.

Sorry. I only knew of the ball pythons. My mistake.

We're on a reptile forum. I expect people like you to know the difference between breeding and feeding (which you may still be overdoing it but your descriptions are vague).

If you knew what I meant then no reason for you to take offense to bad keepers. Unless you feel you fit in the group or morons who overfeed their snakes.

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by FWK

Citation? I've never heard of this and would very much like to know more.

I would also like to know where you got your information about these tree dwelling bail pythons. I have search for it and have not come up with any info, except that ball pythons do climb trees.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by FWK

Citation? I've never heard of this and would very much like to know more.

One on differences of ectoparasite loads between the sexes.

Why do males and females of Python regius differ in ectoparasite load?**»**Brill Online

Sexual dimorphism and dietary divergance.

There's also this one, which I have yet to find the full text of so I can access the actual study.

An investigation into the composition, complexity and functioning of snake communities in the mangroves of south-eastern Nigeria - Luiselli - 2002 - African Journal of Ecology - Wiley Online Library

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

One on differences of ectoparasite loads between the sexes.

Why do males and females of Python regius differ in ectoparasite load?**»**Brill Online

Sexual dimorphism and dietary divergance.

There's also this one, which I have yet to find the full text of so I can access the actual study.

An investigation into the composition, complexity and functioning of snake communities in the mangroves of south-eastern Nigeria - Luiselli - 2002 - African Journal of Ecology - Wiley Online Library

You do know the first link refutes the second link, correct?

The second link says they SUGGEST that males tend to be more arboreal. Long hanging branches and it's possible due to their smaller body than females.

The first link says both males and females were found in the same burrows so it debunked the suggestion that they were from different habitats outside of breeding.

It's still an interesting thought on sexes having different diets.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Sorry. I only knew of the ball pythons. My mistake.

We're on a reptile forum. I expect people like you to know the difference between breeding and feeding (which you may still be overdoing it but your descriptions are vague).

If you knew what I meant then no reason for you to take offense to bad keepers. Unless you feel you fit in the group or morons who overfeed their snakes.

I don't see why you insist on calling people morons bc they are making a decision to overfeed their snakes. Cant they just be ignorant of the proper feeding procedure? Maybe they're new to the hobby. I don't see where that calls for a insult. Why cant the risks , pros and cons just be explained to people without the counterproductive terminology? Thanks.

[Andy_G]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

I also don't see how saying snakes should be allowed space is antropomorphising (not saying you're saying this MesoCorney), nothing about that is ascribing human characteristics to them.

This.

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

It doesn't, but it does encourage it. You'll notice more activity out of a snake with multiple different things to explore than a snake in a cage 1/3 of its body length and nothing but a hide, even if it does laps. As loosely as I use this term, snakes get bored. S

Snakes are "positively thigmotactic". They like to feel constant contact against their body as it makes them feel safe and secure. I wouldn't personally deem more activity in a larger enclosure to be positive in every instance...or even in most. Giving them a space much larger than necessity and having them cruise could be a sign of stress and not comfort or curiosity. I would first give a snake a smaller or "appropriately sized" enclosure, and if they were restless or showed discomfort in that instance, I would then bump up the size, but not the other way around...and that's not because I have lack of space or funding, it's just a better process of stress reduction and successful propagation in my opinion. So...the notion of them wanting the most space and multiple sources of stimuli as possible would also be anthropomorphic in my opinion.

[Andy_G]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

I also don't see how saying snakes should be allowed space is antropomorphising (not saying you're saying this MesoCorney), nothing about that is ascribing human characteristics to them.

This.

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

It doesn't, but it does encourage it. You'll notice more activity out of a snake with multiple different things to explore than a snake in a cage 1/3 of its body length and nothing but a hide, even if it does laps. As loosely as I use this term, snakes get bored. S

Snakes are "positively thigmotactic". They like to feel constant contact against their body as it makes them feel safe and secure. I wouldn't personally deem more activity in a larger enclosure to be positive in every instance...or even in most. Giving them a space much larger than necessity and having them cruise could be a sign of stress rather than comfort. I would first give a snake a smaller or "appropriately sized" enclosure, and if they were restless or showed discomfort in that instance, I would then bump up the size, but not the other way around...and that's not because I have lack of space or funding, it's just a better process of stress reduction and successful propagation in my opinion. So...the notion of them wanting the most space and multiple sources of stimuli as possible would also be anthropomorphic in my opinion.

[FWK]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

One on differences of ectoparasite loads between the sexes.

Why do males and females of Python regius differ in ectoparasite load?**»**Brill Online

Sexual dimorphism and dietary divergance.

There's also this one, which I have yet to find the full text of so I can access the actual study.

An investigation into the composition, complexity and functioning of snake communities in the mangroves of south-eastern Nigeria - Luiselli - 2002 - African Journal of Ecology - Wiley Online Library

This is some very interesting data. I honestly had no idea Ball Pythons took so many birds as prey. Very cool. I have chicks and small chickens for my Rat Snakes, I'm tempted to see if my male Ball Pythons would show any interest at all. It does not change my views on husbandry however. Relatively small tubs are the way to go, ideal for both the physical and psychological well-being of these animals. But it does shed some light on the species overall. Here is a link to the third paper, if you'd like to read it.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Andy_G

Snakes are "positively thigmotactic". They like to feel constant contact against their body as it makes them feel safe and secure. I wouldn't personally deem more activity in a larger enclosure to be positive in every instance...or even in most. Giving them a space much larger than necessity and having them cruise could be a sign of stress and not comfort or curiosity. I would first give a snake a smaller or "appropriately sized" enclosure, and if they were restless or showed discomfort in that instance, I would then bump up the size, but not the other way around...and that's not because I have lack of space or funding, it's just a better process of stress reduction and successful propagation in my opinion. So...the notion of them wanting the most space and multiple sources of stimuli as possible would also be anthropomorphic in my opinion.

You can make a bigger enclosure densely packed so they're not open, negating that argument. You can also better allow multiple microclimates in a larger enclosure, which you simply cannot do in a smaller enclosure. Offering microclimates allows a snake to choose humid or drier areas, warmer or cooler areas, dark or lighter areas, and/or higher and lower areas. So it could also allow them more wiggle room for deciding what's best for them at any given moment rather than having to deal with whatever we want to offer them that's uniform throughout the entire enclosure.

I'm not saying they want more space or they want multiple sources of stimuli, but whether or not they want it it can encourage natural behaviors, which will also stimulate areas of the brain related to those functions. In the same way a bird HAS to be allowed to fly for proper bodily and mental function, maybe snakes need to exhibit certain behaviors to properly function. It probably isn't life or death like with birds, but it would at least be a positive thing to provide for their well-being.

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

You do know the first link refutes the second link, correct?

The second link says they SUGGEST that males tend to be more arboreal. Long hanging branches and it's possible due to their smaller body than females.

The first link says both males and females were found in the same burrows so it debunked the suggestion that they were from different habitats outside of breeding.

It's still an interesting thought on sexes having different diets.

I think that's moreso because it's relatively new data on the species, but I agree it's definitely interesting and at least gives us data to think about. As more research is done on this side of the ball python's natural activities, I'm sure more light will be shed.

Originally Posted by FWK

This is some very interesting data. I honestly had no idea Ball Pythons took so many birds as prey. Very cool. I have chicks and small chickens for my Rat Snakes, I'm tempted to see if my male Ball Pythons would show any interest at all. It does not change my views on husbandry however. Relatively small tubs are the way to go, ideal for both the physical and psychological well-being of these animals. But it does shed some light on the species overall. Here is a link to the third paper, if you'd like to read it.

Actually I think I already provided a link to that paper, I'm fairly sure it's that one link I was trying to find the full paper for, as I only had the abstract.

[FWK]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

You can make a bigger enclosure densely packed so they're not open, negating that argument. You can also better allow multiple microclimates in a larger enclosure, which you simply cannot do in a smaller enclosure. Offering microclimates allows a snake to choose humid or drier areas, warmer or cooler areas, dark or lighter areas, and/or higher and lower areas. So it could also allow them more wiggle room for deciding what's best for them at any given moment rather than having to deal with whatever we want to offer them that's uniform throughout the entire enclosure.

You're getting a little carried away with this. At some point this enclosure has become so large it is impossible to find the animal so it can be fed. Perhaps we should add a colony of rats so that the snake can chose when and where to feed, or not to feed, whatever. It's not like we would know anyway.

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

Actually I think I already provided a link to that paper, I'm fairly sure it's that one link I was trying to find the full paper for, as I only had the abstract.

I literally have no idea what this means.