Why is this considered acceptable?

[sirtalis]

so if I kept a tegu in a 10 gallon critter keeper or a green tree python in an aquarium people would call me out but (no disrespect intended) but the norm for ball pythons is a tub like in the pics, usually a bit bigger. I've heard that they do well in a small space but many people who keep their ball in a large bio active cage gave very healthy large ball pythons that explore and eat regularly (when properly set up) 2000-gram-07-female-pastel-ball-python_28251.jpg I mean really?

[Andy_G]

If they thrive in a small bin as well as in a large bioactive enclosure, then isn't the choice of that a matter of taste, practicality, and opinion , and neither right nor wrong? I agree that a large bioactive is very attractive and much more enriching for the owner as well as sometimes the inhabitant, but not always necessarily so..I have a few set up for my cresties as a matter of fact, but they would also do fine in a smaller, sterile enclosure as well. Saying that, if someone is keeping them in an aquarium with an 88 hot spot and dry as a bone, you better believe I would point it out and try to help.

[Humble308]

I have some mixed emotions about this. What I READ is that the BP's do fine and like the smaller space and yada yada...but I often feel like it's an excuse offered by folks who want to keep huge amounts of snakes. The BP's at our shelter are racked like this and they seem to do fine, but personally I offer my snakes larger enclosures and even as babies they use every bit of it. I wouldn't keep one of my own animals in something that size.

To each their own I reckon.

[bigsnakegirl785]

They survive in racks and eat and breed, but I personally would never keep snakes older than hatchlings in racks.

As long as the floor space is adequate, I don't have as many qualms, but I think having space to climb, yes, even for ball pythons (just make them wider and not too far off the ground) is best.

In general, yeah, the idea behind racks is to save space to have more snakes, or at least save space even for a few snakes. I'd rather have a few full-sized enclosures than a bunch of racks. Fatty liver disease and obesity is common in ball pythons, so I think it would be beneficial to give them as much space as you can as well as feeding them a bit less than what we normally do. Not even wild snakes need the amount of food we give to our snakes.

People can do as they wish, if they provide the floor space for their racked snakes and don't keep semi-arboreal or arboreal snakes in racks, it's their prerogative. I have a problem with it when I see stuff like a 6'-7' ratsnake kept in the same size of tub as the one that ball python is in, so that it takes up every square inch of vertical and horizontal space. Or if the snake doesn't have the room to get off the heat source. If the snake takes up half or more of the floor space, the enclosure is too small, they can't thermoregulate.

I think it's in our best interest to provide the biggest, most enriching enclosures we can. I know a breeder that has hundreds of babies a year and still makes sure all their adults have full-sized enclosures, and they're just one person.

[RAD House]

I think it has to do with understanding the natural history of the animal. A monitor are active hunters in the wild where as both ball pythons and green tree pythons are sit and wait ambush predators. That is why both species of snakes can thrive in a smaller enclosure than what you may think is acceptable for a snake their size. In the case of ball pythons people think they are notoriously finicky eaters, but I think this mainly has to do with husbandry because people who have been in the hobby for a long time seem to have less problems. Most people obsess about temps and humidity but ignore that ball pythons must feel secure. Ball pythons spend a good amount of their time crammed into small spaces. When being collected they are most often found in termite mounds and require a good amount of diggind to get them out. I agree if the animal thrives than who are we to say which method is best as we are all mostly hobbyist. On a side note that tub does look awfully small for a snake that size.

[Minkness]

Well, I'm not a breeder and though I have some of my snakes in tubs, they are an adequate size if not larger than needed with a heat source. I eventually want everyone in display enclosures, but that will take time. I do still want alot of animals, but really don't want racks.

However, if I were indeed a breeder, I would probably go with racks for everything but my personal pets. But they would be spacious for each animal.

Personally I think we need more specialized racks/tubs just for reptiles. Like ones that are long and tall for boas for example.

[Albert Clark]

Well, I don't think it's a question of acceptability. It's a matter of functionality and the responsible keepers desire of a particular appearance. The important factor should be are the needs and requirements of the reptile being met. Proper temperatures, ambient and hot spot. Cool side and warm side and proper humidity. Are the essentials being met? Physical interaction and allowances for excersize and roaming for the animal. It boils down to what we as keepers want for our animals and for ourselves as much as what will be functional for us.

[sirtalis]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Well, I don't think it's a question of acceptability. It's a matter of functionality and the responsible keepers desire of a particular appearance. The important factor should be are the needs and requirements of the reptile being met. Proper temperatures, ambient and hot spot. Cool side and warm side and proper humidity. Are the essentials being met? Physical interaction and allowances for excersize and roaming for the animal. It boils down to what we as keepers want for our animals and for ourselves as much as what will be functional for us.

Totally got you man, I've got no problem with tubs if the animal is properly set up but personally I would always go naturalistc, just personal preference, what bugs me is bhb style cramped

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

... Fatty liver disease and obesity is common in ball pythons,..

I think this has less to do with enclosure size than it does with diets and moronic people overfeeding snakes. A lot of snakes in general are obese.

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

I think it has to do with understanding the natural history of the animal. A monitor are active hunters in the wild where as both ball pythons and green tree pythons are sit and wait ambush predators. That is why both species of snakes can thrive in a smaller enclosure than what you may think is acceptable for a snake their size. In the case of ball pythons people think they are notoriously finicky eaters, but I think this mainly has to do with husbandry because people who have been in the hobby for a long time seem to have less problems. Most people obsess about temps and humidity but ignore that ball pythons must feel secure. Ball pythons spend a good amount of their time crammed into small spaces. When being collected they are most often found in termite mounds and require a good amount of diggind to get them out. I agree if the animal thrives than who are we to say which method is best as we are all mostly hobbyist. On a side note that tub does look awfully small for a snake that size.

Well said. Nothing to add to it. I simply agree that as long as the animal is properly cared for then I don't have a problem with a tub, enclosure, aquarium etc.



I will say however, for those who weren't around 2 decades ago tubs are a huge reason that the hobby is where it is today. It really helped get a lot of "hard to keep", "hard to acclimate" and "hard to breed" species in the mainstream.

Here's how it works...tubs and rack systems streamlined keeping. It allowed keepers to dial in humidity, heat, security and diets to learn how to keep species alive and eventually breed. It took out the variables of different substrates, trying to heat too much room or keep humidity up with an overhead heat lamp (one of the few ways to heat an enclosure 20 years ago), sickness and illnesses and etc.

Since then, especially in the previous 5 or so years, there's been a marked increase of people starting to go back to a more naturalistic environment for their charges. It's fantastic to see and I hope it continues.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by sirtalis

Totally got you man, I've got no problem with tubs if the animal is properly set up but personally I would always go naturalistc, just personal preference, what bugs me is bhb style cramped

Understood.

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I think this has less to do with enclosure size than it does with diets and moronic people overfeeding snakes. A lot of snakes in general are obese.



Well said. Nothing to add to it. I simply agree that as long as the animal is properly cared for then I don't have a problem with a tub, enclosure, aquarium etc.



I will say however, for those who weren't around 2 decades ago tubs are a huge reason that the hobby is where it is today. It really helped get a lot of "hard to keep", "hard to acclimate" and "hard to breed" species in the mainstream.

Here's how it works...tubs and rack systems streamlined keeping. It allowed keepers to dial in humidity, heat, security and diets to learn how to keep species alive and eventually breed. It took out the variables of different substrates, trying to heat too much room or keep humidity up with an overhead heat lamp (one of the few ways to heat an enclosure 20 years ago), sickness and illnesses and etc.

Since then, especially in the previous 5 or so years, there's been a marked increase of people starting to go back to a more naturalistic environment for their charges. It's fantastic to see and I hope it continues.

Well said Aaron. We have been agreeing a lot more lately, that is scary. LOL

[SSSSnakes]

I use tubes and critter keeper tanks that lock. Tubes are great for controlling humidity. I have found that most snakes prefer smaller tank or tubs. They feel more secure and eat better. Simple and basic is the way I like to go.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by SSSSnakes

Well said Aaron. We have been agreeing a lot more lately, that is scary. LOL

LOL it IS scary.

Originally Posted by SSSSnakes

I use tubes and critter keeper tanks that lock. Tubes are great for controlling humidity. I have found that most snakes prefer smaller tank or tubs. They feel more secure and eat better. Simple and basic is the way I like to go.

Yeah I found the same thing about size of enclosure. As a general rule something to make the snake feel more secure is always best. (exceptions to every rule)

I look at it this way. Snakes generally have one weapon to defend themselves. Their mouth. Relative to their body it's a pretty small area it can defend. Therefore, a snake is more likely to prefer coiling on itself to be able to defend itself than to be stretched out all the time.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I think this has less to do with enclosure size than it does with diets and moronic people overfeeding snakes. A lot of snakes in general are obese.

I was thinking it was more a combination of a sedentery lifestyle and diet, which a small enclosure that only allows the snake to take up one half or the other definitely encourage. A snake that is fed conservatively and allowed to expend energy is more likely to stay fit. They don't expend much, but snakes still definitely spend hours and hours crawling around, when depends on the species. Unfortunately, handling time doesn't make up for a snake not allowed space to actually crawl around. 30-60 minutes max doesn't compare to the 6-8 straight hours a nocturnal snake would be spending exploring its cage at night, or the amount a garter snake would spend exploring. I see my garters out at any time of the day, they take a short break and start up again, they easily spend half the day (including night) moving around unless in shed or they recently ate.

I have no problems with stand-alone tubs, I love them for juvenile and subadult snakes, but generally the tubs used in racks are nothing compared to a stand alone tub. Rack tubs seem to stay under 12" in height and are thin in width like a glass aquarium, while you can get stand alone tubs that are nearly 2" in height and have a fairly evenly distributed length and width.

They function for what they're meant for, and as long as the snake's needs are met then do as you wish. I just don't think racks are the best we could be doing for our animals is all.

I actually find my tubs to be set ups that are more difficult to control. I have a harder time maintaining the high humidity most of my snakes need and the temps depend on the room more so than my full-sized enclosures with overhead heat. I have to heat the entire room to the minimum temperature for the snakes. Sure, they can stay warm enough to survive if they hug their heat tape, but if the room is too cold then that's all they do, they can't explore because it's too cold. If I offer a basking shelf and heat just the top, with my full-sized enclosures I can keep the room quite a bit cooler, as well as being able to more easily maintain humidity. The most I can do in my tubs is mist, and misting doesn't do much for the humidity. It might bump it to where it needs to be for an hour before the dryness of my heated room causes it all to evaporate away. Tubs and racks are a headache for me and I see them more as a temporary enclosure, but if you have success with it then go for it, as I've stated many times it's only when the snake isn't having its needs met that I have a problem.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

I was thinking it was more a combination of a sedentery lifestyle and diet, which a small enclosure that only allows the snake to take up one half or the other definitely encourage. A snake that is fed conservatively and allowed to expend energy is more likely to stay fit. They don't expend much, but snakes still definitely spend hours and hours crawling around, when depends on the species. Unfortunately, handling time doesn't make up for a snake not allowed space to actually crawl around. 30-60 minutes max doesn't compare to the 6-8 straight hours a nocturnal snake would be spending exploring its cage at night, or the amount a garter snake would spend exploring. I see my garters out at any time of the day, they take a short break and start up again, they easily spend half the day (including night) moving around unless in shed or they recently ate.

Why does an enclosure mean a snake isn't sedentary while a tub means they are? The surface area may be smaller but it doesn't mean the snake isn't moving. It may just make more circuits in a given time frame than in a bigger enclosure.

I have no problems with stand-alone tubs, I love them for juvenile and subadult snakes, but generally the tubs used in racks are nothing compared to a stand alone tub. Rack tubs seem to stay under 12" in height and are thin in width like a glass aquarium, while you can get stand alone tubs that are nearly 2" in height and have a fairly evenly distributed length and width.

They function for what they're meant for, and as long as the snake's needs are met then do as you wish. I just don't think racks are the best we could be doing for our animals is all.

I actually find my tubs to be set ups that are more difficult to control. I have a harder time maintaining the high humidity most of my snakes need and the temps depend on the room more so than my full-sized enclosures with overhead heat. I have to heat the entire room to the minimum temperature for the snakes. Sure, they can stay warm enough to survive if they hug their heat tape, but if the room is too cold then that's all they do, they can't explore because it's too cold. If I offer a basking shelf and heat just the top, with my full-sized enclosures I can keep the room quite a bit cooler, as well as being able to more easily maintain humidity. The most I can do in my tubs is mist, and misting doesn't do much for the humidity. It might bump it to where it needs to be for an hour before the dryness of my heated room causes it all to evaporate away. Tubs and racks are a headache for me and I see them more as a temporary enclosure, but if you have success with it then go for it, as I've stated many times it's only when the snake isn't having its needs met that I have a problem.

Again, exceptions to every rule.