Snakes ARE affectionate

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

Because you've stated two or three times that those of us that don't believe that snakes love "think lowly" of them.

Here is what I said, word by word: "I just hate it when people speak lowly of snakes, and of any pets for that matter." I never made this comment in reference to people who don't believe that snakes love. My comment is strictly about people who use disparaging comments when referring to their snake pets, or their pets in general. Example in my previous post ("these idiots"). I am sorry that you misunderstood my statement.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

Here is what I said, word by word: "I just hate it when people speak lowly of snakes, and of any pets for that matter." I never made this comment in reference to people who don't believe that snakes love. My comment is strictly about people who use disparaging comments when referring to their snake pets, or their pets in general. Example in my previous post ("these idiots"). I am sorry that you misunderstood my statement.

This isn't Tumbler and snakes don't have ears and can't get offended. Who cares if someone disparages them. We all obviously like reptiles and snakes otherwise we'd be on snake murdering forums (probably a thing).

The better debate is, do we think that snakes can be disparaged? If so do they care?

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

This isn't Tumbler and snakes don't have ears and can't get offended. Who cares if someone disparages them. We all obviously like reptiles and snakes otherwise we'd be on snake murdering forums (probably a thing).

The better debate is, do we think that snakes can be disparaged? If so do they care?

I'm absolutely certain that my snakes cannot understand disparaging words, or any words for that matter. But I can understand these words, and that's all that matters. I just don't like how some people talk about their pets. It doesn't mean that their pets are bad. It simply reflects on their own personality.
Please read my earlier posts to understand the distinction between using disparaging words, and meaning them.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I'm absolutely certain that my snakes cannot understand disparaging words, or any words for that matter. But I can understand these words, and that's all that matters. I just don't like how some people talk about their pets. It doesn't mean that their pets are bad. It simply reflects on their own personality.
Please read my earlier posts to understand the distinction between using disparaging words, and meaning them.

I've read the whole dog and pony show and let me just say this.

You BELIEVE that snakes are affectionate. Every scientific study has shown otherwise. This is brought up, and then I feel sad because you attack us for stating known things.

This doesn't mean snakes don't have personalities. This doesn't mean that snakes are stupid. However they do not give one solitary crap about me as long as I'm not trying to eat them.

Just because my snakes do not love me doesn't mean I can't love them. And that's OK. Billions of human marriages are like this.

But don't come in here, stating opinion when you know dang well what the facts are. I'll find the studies and link them to you if you'd prefer.

If you want to believe your snakes love you, that's fine and it doesn't hurt any of us. But this is just you doing you. And that's great. But don't come in here talking fact if you don't have any.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

Here is what I said, word by word: "I just hate it when people speak lowly of snakes, and of any pets for that matter." I never made this comment in reference to people who don't believe that snakes love. My comment is strictly about people who use disparaging comments when referring to their snake pets, or their pets in general. Example in my previous post ("these idiots"). I am sorry that you misunderstood my statement.

The following was posted by you long before the one guy called his snake stupid, or anyone said anything disparaging, other than saying snakes don't love.

Hey, guys, are you actually snake owners, or did you join this forum just for fun? You are acting as if snakes are worthless, brainless, heartless pets.

But I do FEEL their love, and that says it all. In return, I treat them with the utmost care and affection and I make sure that they can feel it too. That's what makes a snake-human relationship worthwhile.

I just wonder how some people speak of these animals, with such detachment and (almost) disdain.

So, I'm not buying your revisionist history of the attitude you've had toward those of us who don't believe snakes love.

I don't know how old you are, or how much science you know. I'm sure you're a nice person, and I do believe you have the animals' best interests at heart. I just think you're misguided in what those interests actually are. I believe you are thinking VERY much from a human perspective, which is the worst way to understand an animal. Our human brains are quite unique in nature. I suggest you read the book, "Last Ape Standing" by Chip Walter. Sure, some of the more social animals exhibit behaviors that we might call "love" and certainly "affection", but even they aren't THINKING the same way we are, usually. But, to try to apply these types of emotions to a reptile that is not social, often eats its young, doesn't hunt together, doesn't benefit from tight-knit communities, doesn't have much of a brain, and would eat you if you were small enough, is an astronomical stretch of reality.

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

The following was posted by you long before the one guy called his snake stupid, or anyone said anything disparaging, other than saying snakes don't love.







So, I'm not buying your revisionist history of the attitude you've had toward those of us who don't believe snakes love.

I don't know how old you are, or how much science you know. I'm sure you're a nice person, and I do believe you have the animals' best interests at heart. I just think you're very misguided in what those interests actually are. I believe you are thinking VERY much from a human perspective, which is the worst way to understand an animal. Our human brains are very unique in nature. I suggest you read the book, "Last Ape Standing" by Chip Walter. Sure, some of the more social animals exhibit behaviors that we might call "love" and certainly "affection", but even they aren't THINKING the same way we are, usually. But, to try to apply these types of emotions to a reptile that is not social, often eats its young, doesn't hunt together, doesn't benefit from tight-knit communities, doesn't have much of a brain, and would eat you if you were small enough, is an astronomical stretch of reality.

Thank you for selecting these quotes from my earlier postings. They do, indeed, sum up my point, but I respect your opinion that they say something else. It is your choice how you interpret my statements, although I would much prefer if they were taken for what they are, instead of being speculated upon.

I started this thread because I was curious to find out other people's opinions. Quite a few members thought it was laughable, and replied as such. They are entitled to do so, I respect that. Some others quoted old and/or outdated scientific evidence. I respect that too. But a few were unfairly rude, not only towards me, the original poster, but also towards the entire pet snake idea. I do not respect that.

I am not trying to impose my point of view. But I will not shut up when the comments posted in this thread turn nasty. This forum was created with the pets' well-being in mind, or so I believe. Yet, it seems that some people keep waking up on the wrong side of the bed, and use the forum and its members as a punching bag. I am deeply disappointed.

Oh, please note that these comments are not directed at you personally. I just summarized what happened so far, and what prompted my comments. But I don't have to convince you, do I? You are welcome to interpret my posts in every way you wish.

And yes, I do read a lot, I am highly educated, and I always strive to learn as much as I possible can about my pets, their behavior (both in the wild and in captivity) and their traits. The topic of 'snake affection' is very divided, and backed by old scientific findings that are lately being disputed. The 'limbic system' theory has become outdated, and more scientists now look at the snake brain from different angles. But that's irrelevant to me. I have six amazing snakes, they all display a primitive closeness that I like to call 'affection', and I believe there's nothing wrong with perceiving it as such.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

The topic of 'snake affection' is very divided, and backed by old scientific findings that are lately being disputed. The 'limbic system' theory has become outdated, and more scientists now look at the snake brain from different angles.

Can you link to any peer-reviewed findings by these scientists on reptiles and their love and affection?

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

Can you link to any peer-reviewed findings by these scientists on reptiles and their love and affection?

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

Not to nitpick but this is about intelligence not emotion.

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

Not to nitpick but this is about intelligence not emotion.

With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

Interesting. But, that's a non-peer-reviewed article about how reptiles might be a little more intelligent about how to obtain food than we previously thought. That's not our topic here. Nobody disputes that finding food is a natural behavior for reptiles.

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

Interesting. But, that's a non-peer-reviewed article about how reptiles might be a little more intelligent about how to obtain food than we previously thought. That's not our topic here. Nobody disputes that finding food is a natural behavior for reptiles.

I am pasting here my reply to Lady_bug's comment, as I believe it is relevant to your comment as well: "With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible."

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

This is the article I reference in all of the are my snakes dumb posts I see. It's a great article and study that points out some problems in previous testing. But that is about learning not about feeling. If we were talking about can you condition your snake into certain behaviors the answer would be yes. But you are talking about a snake actively wanting to be around you for reasons beyond if feeling like it can get something from you.

Garter Snakes are known to excite when the top of a cage opens because they know food is likely, that's a learned behavior. But if you put a snake on the ground it will slither away from you.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

NYT is now peer reviewed? Good to know. I'll cite that next conference I lecture at. Thanks!!!


(geez...ending a sentence in a preposition....that's crass)

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by MDT

NYT is now peer reviewed? Good to know. I'll cite that next conference I lecture at. Thanks!!!


(geez...ending a sentence in a preposition....that's crass)

I didn't say it was peer reviewed. I just mentioned it because I found it online. It is quite interesting.

So, take a deep breath and relax, no need to bite