Snakes ARE affectionate

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

Can you link to any peer-reviewed findings by these scientists on reptiles and their love and affection?

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

Not to nitpick but this is about intelligence not emotion.

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

Not to nitpick but this is about intelligence not emotion.

With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible.

With respect. You're grasping at nonexistent straws

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible.

Yeah but you only need one of those things to be considered an intelligent being. Capacity for learning and understanding is much different than grasping truths, facts and meanings. Heck I'll even give them the ability to recognize an individual potentially. But when push comes to shove that isn't affection.

[SoPhilly]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible.

Mmmm... the ability to reason and the capacity for emotion are definitely thought of as two separate systems in psychology... and I believe in neuroscience as well.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

Interesting. But, that's a non-peer-reviewed article about how reptiles might be a little more intelligent about how to obtain food than we previously thought. That's not our topic here. Nobody disputes that finding food is a natural behavior for reptiles.

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

Interesting. But, that's a non-peer-reviewed article about how reptiles might be a little more intelligent about how to obtain food than we previously thought. That's not our topic here. Nobody disputes that finding food is a natural behavior for reptiles.

I am pasting here my reply to Lady_bug's comment, as I believe it is relevant to your comment as well: "With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible."

[eminart]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I am pasting here my reply to Lady_bug's comment, as I believe it is relevant to your comment as well: "With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible."

So, the answer to my question is "no", you can't link to a peer-reviewed scientific article discussing findings on snakes exhibiting love.

I get what you're saying and what you want to believe. I just don't agree with you, nor does science. The article you keep posting doesn't call reptiles intelligent animals. It says they're MORE intelligent than we might have previously thought. That doesn't put them on the level of primates.

I've kept reptiles since the early 80's. Not once has one loved me. Most tolerated me, and learned to accept my presence. Some even learned that my presence sometimes benefited them, like my Testudo Kleinmanni who rushes to the front of her table when I approach, hoping greens might appear on the magic rock. But, if I died tomorrow she wouldn't feel any sense of loss. My D. couperi will sit on my lap on the couch and sniff around on me with his tongue. He's lost most of his fear of me. I'm warm. He's content to sit around and sense his environment. He'd eat me if I were 4" tall. I absolutely adore him. My hawks, which are (legally) trapped from the wild, learn within a few days to come to me for food. Within a few weeks they'll fly free and come to me from 100 yards across a field. But, they do it for their own reasons and instincts to obtain food. They follow me through the woods and fields when they could fly away. But they don't love me. They do it because they quickly adapt to the availability of easy meals. It's just conditioned response.

Anyway, I think you're way off base. Anthropomorphizing animal behavior never fails to annoy the hell out of me. But, I think you've gotten your answer. Almost no one here agrees with you (nor does science). But, you can believe what you want. We can all be friends.

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

Almost no one here agrees with you (nor does science). But, you can believe what you want. We can all be friends.

I don't expect agreement, this is not why I joined this forum. I value other people's opinions, although I may feel they are wrong. I probably got heated up when some members were too crude in their replies, but otherwise I'm perfectly fine with dissenting opinions. Of course, we can all be friends

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

This is the article I reference in all of the are my snakes dumb posts I see. It's a great article and study that points out some problems in previous testing. But that is about learning not about feeling. If we were talking about can you condition your snake into certain behaviors the answer would be yes. But you are talking about a snake actively wanting to be around you for reasons beyond if feeling like it can get something from you.

Garter Snakes are known to excite when the top of a cage opens because they know food is likely, that's a learned behavior. But if you put a snake on the ground it will slither away from you.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

NYT is now peer reviewed? Good to know. I'll cite that next conference I lecture at. Thanks!!!


(geez...ending a sentence in a preposition....that's crass)

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by MDT

NYT is now peer reviewed? Good to know. I'll cite that next conference I lecture at. Thanks!!!


(geez...ending a sentence in a preposition....that's crass)

I didn't say it was peer reviewed. I just mentioned it because I found it online. It is quite interesting.

So, take a deep breath and relax, no need to bite

[MDT]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I didn't say it was peer reviewed. I just mentioned it because I found it online. It is quite interesting.

So, take a deep breath and relax, no need to bite

Not biting....I deal with patients everyday that find "interesting" things online.....trust me, it doesn't make them correct (WebMD, Dr. Oz, etc)...

Sophie, I like your "stick-to-itiveness"....It's obvious that you care about your animals. And from that position, you have made observations and drawn conclusions without actual testing. That's ok...most people won't...but it's simply an opinion. That's cool...I've got opinions and beliefs that some folks here would think ludicrous. They're real to me, but UN-provable scientifically, and I get that.

Enjoy your snakes, take them to a movie, have tea w them...whatever. It's all good...just from a purely neuroanatomical position, having learned in medical school (ok...waaaay back in the 90's) how complex emotions are formed (love) and how primitive emotions are formed (fear, hunger), Snakes just do not possess the structures or pathways (at least in most recognized forms) to achieve those complex emotions.

So, in closing, welcome to sSNAKESs
I have a feeling we'll be chatting again!

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by MDT

Not biting....I deal with patients everyday that find "interesting" things online.....trust me, it doesn't make them correct (WebMD, Dr. Oz, etc)...

Sophie, I like your "stick-to-itiveness"....It's obvious that you care about your animals. And from that position, you have made observations and drawn conclusions without actual testing. That's ok...most people won't...but it's simply an opinion. That's cool...I've got opinions and beliefs that some folks here would think ludicrous. They're real to me, but UN-provable scientifically, and I get that.

Enjoy your snakes, take them to a movie, have tea w them...whatever. It's all good...just from a purely neuroanatomical position, having learned in medical school (ok...waaaay back in the 90's) how complex emotions are formed (love) and how primitive emotions are formed (fear, hunger), Snakes just do not possess the structures or pathways (at least in most recognized forms) to achieve those complex emotions.

So, in closing, welcome to sSNAKESs
I have a feeling we'll be chatting again!

Thanks, MDT

I like talking to people who are good sports. I'm sure we'll chat again. I plan to have snakes for the rest of my life.