Your view of the reptile hobby

[CosmicOwl]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

That's a silly argument, isn't it?

How can you even make the point that an animal living in the wild is unhealthy and stressed out. Have you seen any studies to suggest this?

Have you even seen many animals in captivity? I have seen dozens of animals stressed out in captivity. In fact I would even gamble that more animals die from stress in captivity than in the wild.

I'm not. I'm simply saying that "the wild" isn't inherently a better place for all reptiles.

I'll agree with your point that plenty of animals are stressed in captivity. However, it's hard to say captivity itself is bad, and not individual factors of captivity such as husbandry and diet. I've also acknowledged that a lot of species simply should not be kept in captivity for the aforementioned reasons. This is why I've been trying to keep my argument focused on animals that are housed under good conditions.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by CosmicOwl

I'm not. I'm simply saying that "the wild" isn't inherently a better place for all reptiles.

I'll agree with your point that plenty of animals are stressed in captivity. However, it's hard to say captivity itself is bad, and not individual factors of captivity such as husbandry and diet. I've also acknowledged that a lot of species simply should not be kept in captivity for the aforementioned reasons. This is why I've been trying to keep my argument focused on animals that are housed under good conditions.

You're then trying to make the argument not about the hobby and how it is as a whole but about a certain aspect. Ignoring other factors.

It's fine if that's what you want to talk about but that isn't what this debate was originally intended for.

[CosmicOwl]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

You're then trying to make the argument not about the hobby and how it is as a whole but about a certain aspect. Ignoring other factors.

It's fine if that's what you want to talk about but that isn't what this debate was originally intended for.

This thread strayed from its original intent as soon as Lori decided to claim the moral high ground while accusing others of claiming the moral high ground.

Regardless of the intent of this discussion, my argument has only been that I don't see a moral basis for keepers getting rid of all of their animals. I don't think it is inherently selfish to keep reptiles in captivity, but I believe it becomes selfish when one starts to treat them like objects to be hoarded or if they neglect the care required by the animal.

The truth is, morality is not an all or nothing issue. If it were, anybody who had killed another person would be sent to jail for life(because killing is wrong), regardless of whether it was murder or self defense. However, we don't do that because we understand that various factors effect the morality of an issue. Likewise, I feel that keeping animals in captivity is morally neutral, but can become immoral depending upon the circumstances.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by athms

Ball pythons,leopard geckos,corn snakes,bearded dragons,crested geckos is all people are buying and selling for money. 95% of videos i watch is of a 8 year old that has bought a leopard gecko and is going to start breeding them and i always think "wow your going to make lots of money cause not like your going up against giant breeders". Here is the reptile community.

In it for money-85%
Want to show off-5%
In it for the animals-10%

Why don't people try making morphs of other animals? Like tiger salamanders or green anoles other wise were just going to be stuck in the same cycle.

Originally Posted by smy_749

This is pretty accurate.

You can divide the 10% that are "In it for the animals" to 8% uneducated on proper husbandry, and thinking their reptiles love them and love to dress up for halloween and sleep on their laps. 2% can say the scientific name of whats in their collection, and tell you some interesting facts.

Originally Posted by athms;90078[I

9]Thanks i guess im in that 2%

[/I]

Originally Posted by kwhitlock

I get tired of the crazes. At least with the ball pythons holy cow. Dont get me wrong, I love that they are the economy of the reptile trade right now, and I think they are beautiful animals. But honestly when you go to a show, and 90% of the herps there are ball pythons, it shows that most are just there for the money. I honestly like going for the other animals, the skinks, moniters, tree boas, and the colubrids. I will check out a colubrid or a boa any day of the week over a ball. Ill own a ball python one day but honestly lets get some variety back into things..

But also I agree with cosmic. The motto for snakes shouldnt be gotta catch em' all. How about we breed for the fun of it, to learn something..

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Ball pythons at expos are like collectors items. Oh look! a new and shiny toy! Same with non-locale morph boas.

If I ever get a ball python I'm owning a normal one.

Right, I started with the moral high ground....

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

Right, I started with the moral high ground....

I did take the moral high ground first, but I think you're using the wrong example. In my comment you quoted, I was just saying expos focus too much on BP morphs and that I would rather get a normal one. I never said it was morally wrong to have too many bp's at an expo.

I took the moral high ground in my post after that, when I gave my opinion on how I think people are viewing these animals in the wrong way(ie. fascination with multi-gene morphs, feeling accomplishment for creating multi-gene morphs...etc).

So you're right. we are the ones who acted all high and mighty first.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

In my comment you quoted, I was just saying expos focus too much on BP morphs...

This is silly. It isn't the expo that picks who comes and vends at a show. ANYONE can buy a table and set up. Don't blame the expo for something completely out of their control.

So as Lori said, if you want to see something different at a show then people should put their money where their mouth is and do it themselves.

The funny part is that everyone claims they want something else and "different" but when some breeders actually do offer it, no one wants to pay for them. They simply want a different zoo everytime they go to a show.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

This is silly. It isn't the expo that picks who comes and vends at a show. ANYONE can buy a table and set up. Don't blame the expo for something completely out of their control.

So as Lori said, if you want to see something different at a show then people should put their money where their mouth is and do it themselves.

The funny part is that everyone claims they want something else and "different" but when some breeders actually do offer it, no one wants to pay for them. They simply want a different zoo everytime they go to a show.

My fault, I chose the wrong words.

I did not mean to say the people running the expos were to blame. I should have just said "There are too many ball pythons at expos".