The Savannah Monitor Diet thread..

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Moe, diet is a part of husbandry. It's surprising how many people fail to realize this.

I agree to a certain extent.

My obsession with Varanids should be very obvious by now, I gobble up every single documentary, book, research paper and forum post I can, it infects my mind.

Once upon a time, I thought FR was crazy for making this statement "You can feed them nails if the cage supports the animal"

However, the more I learn, the more I do realize what he was trying to say in that statement.

Varanids in general (including Savs) are natures garbage cans, they are opossums with scales, In Asia it is common for water monitors to come right up and raid trash cans in parks, they will eat a human corpse floating in the water, etc, etc.

I would wager that if something happened that wiped out all the millipedes, snails and giant crickets in Africa, that Savs would adapt and do just fine.

I honestly believe that we are placing way too much emphasis on this fat thing, really I do.

Give the monitor, any monitor the correct conditions, allow it to exercise and burn that fuel, and it could eat virtually anything (organic, chemical free of course) that has flesh.

I demonstrated this theory on RFnet when I showed the video of Butaan eating mice. Now we all know that Butaan eat fruit with a supplement of snails in the wild, so how is it that the ones in that video are robust adults on mice?? because they are getting what they need, and the cages are set up more than adequately.

I hate to say this, but losing Chomper was an eye opening experience, it showed just how ill informed I really was, I avoided rodents, I thought I was doing right by him, but in the end.. I had a very dead monitor.

It can't be blamed on rodents, Mice would not have saved him either.

However, during this last year I have actively sought out anyone who would take the time to talk to me who keeps or has kept Savannah monitors, bred them, studied them, dissected them, etc...

and unless I want to start calling people liars, all of the animals that are alive past 5 years have done so on a diet that included rodent, and a few of them including Ravi Thakoordyal used mice as the staple food in their diets.

the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round........

[varanus_mad]

Interesting to hear about thew frugivores being happy n healthy of mice...

but i cant say im suprised... i never thought for a second theyd be solely fruit eaters aside from one enlarged sack which the name of escapes me at the minute i believe there digestive system is the same as every other monitors....

[MonitorMad]

Correct high basking temps will let any monitor use any food source to it's full advantage , yes boscs eat a hell of a lot of different inverts and mollusc's in the wild but also they will consume other lizards , amphibs , ground nesting birds , scorpions and even small snake species if encountered plus any rodents they come across , so all in all a correct captive environment is the most important , correct humidity , correct basking spot temps and correct ambient temps plus being able to thermo regulate correctly within that environment. MM

Edit ........ whole food items that is

[BeardedDee]

A question I would ask is, would a female Sav on an insect only diet be able gain enough calcium to shell potentially 50-60 eggs?

[bodiddleyitis]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Varanids in general (including Savs) are natures garbage cans, they are opossums with scales, In Asia it is common for water monitors to come right up and raid trash cans in parks, they will eat a human corpse floating in the water, etc, etc.

I would wager that if something happened that wiped out all the millipedes, snails and giant crickets in Africa, that Savs would adapt and do just fine.

I demonstrated this theory on RFnet when I showed the video of Butaan eating mice. Now we all know that Butaan eat fruit with a supplement of snails in the wild, so how is it that the ones in that video are robust adults on mice?? because they are getting what they need, and the cages are set up more than adequately.

Interesting stuff. I very much doubt that, in the event of mass millipede and cricket extinction, that savannah monitors could compete with the animals (primarily snakes) that are already eating rodents in West Africa. Its diet is so specialised everywhere people have looked that the idea that it could suddenly switch to a generalised diet seems rather far fetched. How the theory that they are "getting what they need" is demonstrated by a "robust" butaan eating mice on a video isn't very clear. If they are not churning out eggs at regular intervals, they aren't getting what they need. Butaan don't churn out eggs in captivity, and despite all the claims that their diet in nature is irrelevant when kept in a box, nobody has managed to breed these lizards in captivity, despite considerable efforts. Butaans' ability to kill and eat rodents is perhaps why Robert Sprackland listed them as among the easiest varanids to keep in his remarkable "Giant Lizards" book. It's true that a small percentage of them can survive for decades on a diet of rodents and fruits that are edible to humans, but the percentage is extremely small and they do not reproduce.

I don't know how many times I've said this on this thread, but in order to demonstrate that a diet is suitable for monitor lizards, you need to be able to show that the lizards can survive on it from generation to generation, not just that they are "robust" and can kill and swallow things.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by BeardedDee

A question I would ask is, would a female Sav on an insect only diet be able gain enough calcium to shell potentially 50-60 eggs?

I dont think anyone is saying anything about an insect only diet. And in answer to your question, yes, the monitor could get enough calcium on an invert only diet. (Though if we are talking boscs, then the clutches are more like 15-25.)

Ill agree with you Wayne that indeed these animals can sustain themselves on just about anything, as long as it has enough calories. But like Daniel said, sustain themselves and thrive are different things.

I bring up the saturated fat thing only because I feel like we are at a level of discussion whereby we can get into finer detail. I dont look to feed any of my reptiles just what they can get by on, I try to feed them the best, most nutritious diet I can feed them. Like I said, I cant imagine higher levels of saturated fat having much effect at all on younger animals in a proper habitat. I just think that it seems likely that this could effect longevity. Is there proof? No, but I think that it makes sense from a nutritional point of view and from the conjectural evidence to keep those fats to a lower level. Nutritionally speaking, animals not adapted to a high saturated fat diet develop health problems when they are fed this diet and their metabolism slows down. We also see that even properly supported boscs do not live longer than around 12 years usually, yet we suspect that they live much longer in the wild. Larger monitors used to eating more red meat do seem to live longer in captivity however. So it might make sense that this maybe having an effect on longevity. Again, no scientific proof on this, as no studies have been done either way.

Now if you think the only measure of monitor health is whether they breed or not, well then this argument means little. Im not a breeder, so to me longevity and the ability to breed seem like better indicators. Thats just my perspective though.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by jarich

I dont think anyone is saying anything about an insect only diet. And in answer to your question, yes, the monitor could get enough calcium on an invert only diet. (Though if we are talking boscs, then the clutches are more like 15-25.)

Ill agree with you Wayne that indeed these animals can sustain themselves on just about anything, as long as it has enough calories. But like Daniel said, sustain themselves and thrive are different things.

I bring up the saturated fat thing only because I feel like we are at a level of discussion whereby we can get into finer detail. I dont look to feed any of my reptiles just what they can get by on, I try to feed them the best, most nutritious diet I can feed them. Like I said, I cant imagine higher levels of saturated fat having much effect at all on younger animals in a proper habitat. I just think that it seems likely that this could effect longevity. Is there proof? No, but I think that it makes sense from a nutritional point of view and from the conjectural evidence to keep those fats to a lower level. Nutritionally speaking, animals not adapted to a high saturated fat diet develop health problems when they are fed this diet and their metabolism slows down. We also see that even properly supported boscs do not live longer than around 12 years usually, yet we suspect that they live much longer in the wild. Larger monitors used to eating more red meat do seem to live longer in captivity however. So it might make sense that this maybe having an effect on longevity. Again, no scientific proof on this, as no studies have been done either way.

Now if you think the only measure of monitor health is whether they breed or not, well then this argument means little. Im not a breeder, so to me longevity and the ability to breed seem like better indicators. Thats just my perspective though.

That age would be under ideal conditions. Daniel had stated (somewhere) that all of the adult animals he found were young adults with high parasite loads and massive ticks, sometimes attached in ears and nostrils, as well as the Cloacal Vent.

These animals were in rough shape. However he did clarify that the sample range was small. So would this be indicative of all animals in the wild?

[jarich]

Im not sure I understand what that has to do with the discussion of possible life expectancy. Daniel has no idea how old those animals were, whatever their condition.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by jarich

Im not sure I understand what that has to do with the discussion of possible life expectancy. Daniel has no idea how old those animals were, whatever their condition.

True, I just remember him going off on someone for claiming they live so long in the wild.

we all know that with correct husbandry (once we truly find out what that is) any animal should live double, triple or more than it's wild counterparts do.

You and I would never tolerate ticks or parasites on our Savs, and we certainly are not going to allow any Baboons from ripping them apart either.

[bodiddleyitis]

Yes, some butaan keepers have been experienced varanid breeders. In practical terms, monitor nutrition is all about fat. Mineral deficiencies are not an issue when you always coat your food in soil. You might assume that if an animals has had a specific diet for millions of years that selection might favour the individuals best able to utilise specific types of fat. Most species of monitor lizard that we know about have a generalist diet in the wild, but a few do not.

I think that anybody who spent a day with savannah monitors in the wild would be convinced that the animals had a very specialised natural history. But an analogy might be the European badger; if you only know about badgers in boxes, you could easily be mistaken into thinking that this was a ferocious carnivore which could easily kill a dog and would eat just about anything it could find. You might also suspect that badgers would hunt other large mammals in packs. If you then went to watch wild badgers you might interpret their search for earthworms as a hunt for baby rabbits, but by the end of the night you'd be thinking that these particular badgers must just find it easiest to look for worms, and that the fierce packing hunting badgers were elsewhere.

I think that one of the saddest thing about this is that the pet trade has made this quite extraordinary monitor lizard into a generic product for "monitor lovers". It ticks all the boxes with regard to price, ability to withstand dessication and looking cute and prehistoric. But it doesn't have a macho diet like the Komodo dragon, and it's very much in the interests of marketing the animals to dismiss its ecological specialisations as the result of not enough data. All monitors are the same, right?

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by bodiddleyitis

I don't know how many times I've said this on this thread, but in order to demonstrate that a diet is suitable for monitor lizards, you need to be able to show that the lizards can survive on it from generation to generation, not just that they are "robust" and can kill and swallow things.

Sadly Daniel, That "sample group" is the smallest yet.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by bodiddleyitis

Interesting stuff. I very much doubt that, in the event of mass millipede and cricket extinction, that savannah monitors could compete with the animals (primarily snakes) that are already eating rodents in West Africa. Its diet is so specialised everywhere people have looked that the idea that it could suddenly switch to a generalised diet seems rather far fetched..

You are the man to ask.. My thoughts could very well be off base here, but over history (and pre-history) some species will adapt to ever changing conditions, and other species vanish when conditions change.

One would think that since Varanids are one of the oldest currently existing genus around that they have repeadedly adapted to changes already, and would be suited to additional changes.

Sure there will be mass die offs, but the animals that chose to begin consuming alternative foods would continue on, would they not?

Originally Posted by bodiddleyitis

I think that one of the saddest thing about this is that the pet trade has made this quite extraordinary monitor lizard into a generic product for "monitor lovers". It ticks all the boxes with regard to price, ability to withstand dessication and looking cute and prehistoric. But it doesn't have a macho diet like the Komodo dragon, and it's very much in the interests of marketing the animals to dismiss its ecological specialisations as the result of not enough data. All monitors are the same, right?

Could not agree more. It's sad that people don't realize just how cool they really are.

It's also sad that the masses seem to prefer those lethargic lumps we see on youtube most of the time.

Someone commented to me just this week after seeing one of my videos that "I never knew Savs were so quick" he had a picture formed in his mind that they were all waddling blobs that sat around all day.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Someone commented to me just this week after seeing one of my videos that "I never knew Savs were so quick"

I would have fired right back: "Healthy ones are."

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

I would have fired right back: "Healthy ones are."

I did, am I that predictable?

[StudentoReptile]

You're gettin' there! lol