Keeping snakes without a hotspot

[Doug 351]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

Recommending an unsafe piece of equipment when there are plenty of safe alternatives is completely different to what is being discussed here.

Well....unfortunately, we are on different sides of the street, ....and I throw down the gauntlet!!!!

But....I wanna see ANY EVIDENCE a heat rock has injured anything but a British woman in the last 10 years!

Ummmm.....I don't ever wanna see a reptile injured.... ( unless it lives in the UK!!!! ( Love ya bud, ya know I'm kidding!)

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by Doug 351

Well....unfortunately, we are on different sides of the street, ....and I throw down the gauntlet!!!!

But....I wanna see ANY EVIDENCE a heat rock has injured anything but a British woman in the last 10 years!

Ummmm.....I don't ever wanna see a reptile injured.... ( unless it lives in the UK!!!! ( Love ya bud, ya know I'm kidding!)

I think the heat rock discussion at least potentially has validity to be reopened. Back in the day they were dangerous. We all saw pictures and hear horror stories.

Could the quality control and designs, safety measures have improved in the 25 or so years since they first became popular? I think its possible, they still sell the dang things even though seemingly every reptile community on the planet strongly recommends against them. Could they have been improved to the point that a failure or burn is as rare as it is with heat pads?

That said, even if they are as safe as a heat pad is. They affect the ambient temps less than a wide spread heat pad, look ugly most of the time and in my opinion the optimal product would still be the heat pad even ignoring the safety concerns of a heat rock.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

I think the heat rock discussion at least potentially has validity to be reopened. Back in the day they were dangerous. We all saw pictures and hear horror stories.

Could the quality control and designs, safety measures have improved in the 25 or so years since they first became popular? I think its possible, they still sell the dang things even though seemingly every reptile community on the planet strongly recommends against them. Could they have been improved to the point that a failure or burn is as rare as it is with heat pads?

That said, even if they are as safe as a heat pad is. They affect the ambient temps less than a wide spread heat pad, look ugly most of the time and in my opinion the optimal product would still be the heat pad even ignoring the safety concerns of a heat rock.

Even with more stringent quality controls and safety their very design encourages a reptile to sit on or wrap round them which increases the chance of thermal blocking.

Anyway, I'm reluctant to comment further on this thread as it's been a really interesting debate and I don't want to pollute it and take too far off topic. With this in mind Doug perhaps start at new thread specifically on heat rocks and we can discuss there.

[Doug 351]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

I think the heat rock discussion at least potentially has validity to be reopened. Back in the day they were dangerous. We all saw pictures and hear horror stories.

Could the quality control and designs, safety measures have improved in the 25 or so years since they first became popular? I think its possible, they still sell the dang things even though seemingly every reptile community on the planet strongly recommends against them. Could they have been improved to the point that a failure or burn is as rare as it is with heat pads?

That said, even if they are as safe as a heat pad is. They affect the ambient temps less than a wide spread heat pad, look ugly most of the time and in my opinion the optimal product would still be the heat pad even ignoring the safety concerns of a heat rock.

I don't see the need...AGAIN!!!! Just need one fatality... .( AIN'T HAPPENING!!!!!) HEAT rocks are SAFE now... DEAL WITH IT!!!!

[SSSSnakes]

I have seen a heat rock severely burn (cook) a boas tail. I like heat rocks, cut off the cord and they make nice decorations.

[Doug 351]

Originally Posted by SSSSnakes

I have seen a heat rock severely burn (cook) a boas tail. I like heat rocks, cut off the cord and they make nice decorations.

LOL! I have one....it's about as hot as a lap dog... and no problems in years and years.

NOW....my point is...YES!!! They used to be crap....but!!!!! Before we even have a RIDICULOUS conversation on something that DOESN'T EXSIST...( heat rock danger)... We should start with something substantial, not outdated OPINIONS!

BTW: I don't see the need for a separate thread, (I thought this was about HEAT SOURCES!)

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by Doug 351

LOL! I have one....it's about as hot as a lap dog... and no problems in years and years.

NOW....my point is...YES!!! They used to be crap....but!!!!! Before we even have a RIDICULOUS conversation on something that DOESN'T EXSIST...( heat rock danger)... We should start with something substantial, not outdated OPINIONS!

BTW: I don't see the need for a separate thread, (I thought this was about HEAT SOURCES!)

https://www.google.com/search?q=heat...burns+reptiles

It's many more than just one animal affected. They were also much more prevalent years ago before people posted literally everything on the internet. And given the shame of killing your own animal after people on a community site told you not to use one, I doubt they come back to admit they were wrong.

In addition, I would say probably only 10% of the reptile community frequents forums and sites like this for any long time period. Probably less than 50% of reptile keepers ever even create an account. And another 50% just do whatever the pet store tells them to.

That 50% doing whatever a pet store tells them to do aren't likely to even know that communities like this even exist thus we're not likely to hear about it.

[Doug 351]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

https://www.google.com/search?q=heat...burns+reptiles

It's many more than just one animal affected. They were also much more prevalent years ago before people posted literally everything on the internet. And given the shame of killing your own animal after people on a community site told you not to use one, I doubt they come back to admit they were wrong.

In addition, I would say probably only 10% of the reptile community frequents forums and sites like this for any long time period. Probably less than 50% of reptile keepers ever even create an account. And another 50% just do whatever the pet store tells them to.

That 50% doing whatever a pet store tells them to do aren't likely to even know that communities like this even exist thus we're not likely to hear about it.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree. First off, most members on ANY pet forums....are likely to be overly protective and unrealistic in NECESSARY accommodation.

I take the position that most pet owners are OVERPROCTECTIVE... and not very likely to be swayed or swindled by pet store employees. Does it happen??? Of course...but...usually those dolts don't show up on pet forums.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by Doug 351

I'm sorry, I have to disagree. First off, most members on ANY pet forums....are likely to be overly protective and unrealistic in NECESSARY accommodation.

I take the position that most pet owners are OVERPROCTECTIVE... and not very likely to be swayed or swindled by pet store employees. Does it happen??? Of course...but...usually those dolts don't show up on pet forums.

I beg to disagree. We see it on the forums quite frequently, someone shows their setup or asks a question and when asked why they are doing something a certain way one of the more common reason's given is "that's what the employee told me".

Many keeper's first herp was from an impulse purchase. Or just asking mom and she just goes and gets the stuff that the employee gives her etc. My first herp EVER was a leopard frog I raised from a tadpole I caught at a friend's house. I had literally never read a book about animal care in my life. I kinda just winged it based on what I knew about frogs, the first summer I fed it by literally going outside and catching 10-20 black crickets, worms and such every other day or so. It wasn't until winter that I had to figure out what the heck I was gonna feed him, that led me to the internet in all of it's dial up glory and random colored text common of 90's webpages.

I had literally never been in a pet store that sold reptiles before. All our fish in my mom's aquarium were from Walmart (The 90's were a wild wasteland of change and confusion for everyone involved).

Anyways then I got a library card and the rest is history for me.

The main point is, people get the animal, having little knowledge. They DO care about their pet and are protective of it. But I feel it is much more common for that to come AFTER they get their animal. Not before. And if nothing bad happens, they don't have to venture to the internet for anything unless they REALLY catch the bug or find a book or something that expands on what they know about the reptile community. They often only venture here if something goes wrong.

I'm talking the FIRST reptile pet someone gets is going to be a beginner and will have a good chance of being misled by a pet store employee. Sometimes that person has done a lot of research but more likely they didn't.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by Doug 351

LOL! I have one....it's about as hot as a lap dog... and no problems in years and years.

NOW....my point is...YES!!! They used to be crap....but!!!!! Before we even have a RIDICULOUS conversation on something that DOESN'T EXSIST...( heat rock danger)... We should start with something substantial, not outdated OPINIONS!

BTW: I don't see the need for a separate thread, (I thought this was about HEAT SOURCES!)

No this thread is about whether and how to keep reptiles with a basking spot not what the source of a basking spot is it one is provided. Until you mentioned heat rocks no one had discussed heat sources so yes I think this is a separate discussion.

No need to divert the discussion away from what was being discussed here which as I say was about the merits of basking spots or not.

I know from many of your other replies you like to be deliberately antagonistic but please don't ruin threads that have been so interesting. Start your own thread and troll on that all you want.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

No this thread is about whether and how to keep reptiles with a basking spot not what the source of a basking spot is it one is provided. Until you mentioned heat rocks no one had discussed heat sources so yes I think this is a separate discussion.

No need to divert the discussion away from what was being discussed here which as I say was about the merits of basking spots or not.

I know from many of your other replies you like to be deliberately antagonistic but please don't ruin threads that have been so interesting. Start your own thread and troll on that all you want.

I think the heat source is at least relevant. Considering the entire discussion is heat based. I however don't understand Doug's overaggressive and dismissive method of conveying his information.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

I think the heat source is at least relevant. Considering the entire discussion is heat based. I however don't understand Doug's overaggressive and dismissive method of conveying his information.

Perhaps but then we are into the realms of the merits of the various heat sources (radiant, mats, visible light and non visible light bulbs etc) which is a topic in itself. More than happy to diverge into these areas if that's the consensus.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

Perhaps but then we are into the realms of the merits of the various heat sources (radiant, mats, visible light and non visible light bulbs etc) which is a topic in itself. More than happy to diverge into these areas if that's the consensus.

Lol, sure lets discuss that!

I think that debate is easy to solve.

Above or below: how thick and what kind of substrate do you have? Very thick, dirt type: Below isn't penetrating it above is the best decision. Relatively thin with comparatively good airflow : Below.

Which type? Above, Radiant, Lightless Bulb, Visible light bulb in that order. Below: Heat pad.

Curve ball: Ambient heat, as discussed previously.

Above method pros: Definitely far and away the most natural.

-Radiant: More spread out, able to adapt to various styles easily including the "sorta ambient" method that jjhill001 the reptile keeping god uses (lol JK but this would be my preferred method). Also is very low profile in terms of added height.

-Lightless Bulb IE Ceramic Heat Emitter: Basically a cheaper version of a radiant heat emitter, much more direct however. Able to pair with a light fixture that produces limited heat that can be on a timer meaning you won't lose heat when the lights go out. Con: the large fixtures needed to spread out the heat are quite tall, almost 5-6 inches, screwing up jjhill001's plan for a taller terrarium IE the stand he's made specifically with room for a 2nd cage.

-Lighted bulb: Natural for sure, however unable to produce heat at night, and a similar effect can be achieved with CHE paired with a light fixture. Pro: cost effective compared to the previously mentioned method which requires two fixtures.

Below method pros: Easy to use, much easier to control.

Heat Pad: various sizes available, helps the "belly heat" people sleep at night. Very easily paired with a thermostat compared to other methods, actually affects ambient heat compared to any other below method. Cons: Has a chance for burning if it screws up, can't penetrate thick substrate.

Heat Rock: Will literally cook your reptile to death 100% of the time. Pet stores sell them so you'll kill your pet and have to buy a new one.

JK on the last one, just picking on Dave a bit lol.

That is at least my opinion on the heating methods available and I think all have their place to be fair although I didn't consider heat tape, back heat or other such things and didn't honestly consider heat rocks. The ideas of heat with snakes are incredibly debatable with enormous amounts of room for debate, strategy differences and interesting information available to people.

If anyone does anything considered weird involving heat with their snakes I encourage sharing.

[dannybgoode]

You miss one interesting benefit of lightbulbs. They output more IR-A than a che which outputs almost exclusively IR-C.

Studies show IR-A penetrates deeper into muscle so is more effective at warming reptiles - particularly important for dinural species who like to get up and on it in the day.

Using my method of heating (ambient room to 22c ish) I can use lightbulbs during the day and then off at night although for my snakes I'm currently using Che's. I may swap to bulbs though over time for the reason.

I have a deep hatred of heat mats and they would be ineffective in my vivs anyway give the depth of substrate.

Heat rocks regardless of modernity are not something I'd use. All the disadvantages of mats (little use in raising ambient temperature etc) with the added dangers already discussed.

[RAD House]

Jesus, heat rocks. How are we not past this? They are so hated for so many very good reasons. As someone already mentioned they are the perfect design to allow your animal to overheat due to heat blocking, which I can only assume you have not looked into Doug. Unlike a heat pad there is no where for the heat from the element to escape to which can lead to an unsafe build up of heat. Another major design flaw is that they look like a rock, which means different material thicknesses. Even if you control the heat if the product with a thermostat there is little guarantee the entire heat surface is the same temperature. At the end of the day all heating elements should be controlled by a thermostat, and even this does not make a heat rock safe so they should not be used. There is a huge difference in being overprotective of a pet and giving them a product that is a known danger to them.