need a little help here

[Aaron_S]

Wayne,

I don't know how prevalent you were in the hobby on the internet literally 10 years ago but that's when rack systems were pretty much ONLY for breeders. I guess since more people are "breeders" it's taken over more. Besides more animals, less room. Why not?

I know that sounds hypocritical but it isn't. It depends on the species and what you plan to do. I breed ball pythons. They do best in tubs. I personally won't own certain animals because I don't have the room for the required sizes.

For example I'd like tokay geckos but from my knowledge they apparently do best in huge enclosures and actually aren't evil when placed in them.

[Pirarucu]

It should also noted that the size of the cage is not the only factor. Another is how useful the cage is to the animal. Put one in a twenty foot cage with nothing but a heat mat, a water bowl, and substrate, and of course it won't do anything. There is no behavior because there is no use for behavior. Make a cage with a large pond, multiple basking spots, and lots of climbing structures, and the animal will use every inch of it.
If you had to pick between living in a completely bare room the size of a football field or a small room with a bed, sink, closet, etc.. Which would you pick?

[limey]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

It should also noted that the size of the cage is not the only factor. Another is how useful the cage is to the animal. Put one in a twenty foot cage with nothing but a heat mat, a water bowl, and substrate, and of course it won't do anything. There is no behavior because there is no use for behavior. Make a cage with a large pond, multiple basking spots, and lots of climbing structures, and the animal will use every inch of it.
If you had to pick between living in a completely bare room the size of a football field or a small room with a bed, sink, closet, etc.. Which would you pick?

Agree 100%. I don't about the other guys, but you make a lot of sense to me and I feel the same way.

[tommy757]

Well ive been reading this thread and it seems that all of the people who are responsible for the lage snake hobbie are just blithering idiots AKA Bob Clark ,Tom Crutchfield ,Kevin w/ N.e.r.d and so on and so and so on are just slow and unsuccesful in thier care of these awesome creatures along w/ everyone on the RETIC NATION for doing it almost exactly the same as the titans of the hobbie and Im a member there Aaron S. lets do a couple of rounds if ya feel ready its no problem even after the hippocrit says he keeps his poor deprived Balls in a rack w/ tubs .With the logic provided here by the small keepers as well as the guy w/ a very small retic, Balls should be kept in the cages generally approved for retics to give the little guys room to peruse and sand boas should have cages w/ hieght to allow them to climb .SMH some of this discussion is just silly w/ the uninformed and inexperianced preaching off the soapbox

[Lankyrob]

Originally Posted by tommy757

Well ive been reading this thread and it seems that all of the people who are responsible for the lage snake hobbie are just blithering idiots AKA Bob Clark ,Tom Crutchfield ,Kevin w/ N.e.r.d and so on and so and so on are just slow and unsuccesful in thier care of these awesome creatures along w/ everyone on the RETIC NATION for doing it almost exactly the same as the titans of the hobbie and Im a member there Aaron S. lets do a couple of rounds if ya feel ready its no problem even after the hippocrit says he keeps his poor deprived Balls in a rack w/ tubs .With the logic provided here by the small keepers as well as the guy w/ a very small retic, Balls should be kept in the cages generally approved for retics to give the little guys room to peruse and sand boas should have cages w/ hieght to allow them to climb .SMH some of this discussion is just silly w/ the uninformed and inexperianced preaching off the soapbox

So as an experienced keeper can you explain why the common rules for housing change when the snake reaches a certain length? And what length would you say this is? I am really genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on this.

[tommy757]

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

So as an experienced keeper can you explain why the common rules for housing change when the snake reaches a certain length? And what length would you say this is? I am really genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on this.

the method that was always used when I came up was the length of the snake halved by 3 deep and 2 high so a 16 foot snake should have an 8x3x2 most people when imahining a large retic imagine twinkie from PP wher as my 15 foot female is not even in the same league which means in her cage out of 24 sq feet of floor she would be lucky if she used 4 sq feet of it and the rules that everyone keeps mentioning where did the come from and how did they become reptile law if you dont mind me asking?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by tommy757

Well ive been reading this thread and it seems that all of the people who are responsible for the lage snake hobbie are just blithering idiots AKA Bob Clark ,Tom Crutchfield ,Kevin w/ N.e.r.d and so on and so and so on are just slow and unsuccesful in thier care of these awesome creatures along w/ everyone on the RETIC NATION for doing it almost exactly the same as the titans of the hobbie and Im a member there Aaron S. lets do a couple of rounds if ya feel ready its no problem even after the hippocrit says he keeps his poor deprived Balls in a rack w/ tubs .With the logic provided here by the small keepers as well as the guy w/ a very small retic, Balls should be kept in the cages generally approved for retics to give the little guys room to peruse and sand boas should have cages w/ hieght to allow them to climb .SMH some of this discussion is just silly w/ the uninformed and inexperianced preaching off the soapbox

Funny how we're all uninformed. When someone apparently has a differing opinion they aren't "informed" or "experienced". I've owned burms and retics. I guess ignorance and closed-minded are requirements to be apart of the Mythical Patheon.

By the way, are we back in the 90s? Where we keep every animal the same? Oh every species needs the same space and environment. Update your information.

My ball pythons are quite fine in their enclosures. It's been PROVEN many times that they do well in smaller enclosures. I have kept dozens of sand boas by the way. Yet to see one climb, no matter what. Mine stay buried.

By the way, I believe if you have a couple ball pythons a proper enclosure,not gigantic either, (not fish cage) is more appropriate than my tubs. I breed my ball pythons so I have a rack system. They thrive and do fine. I also don't breed just five. I have 56 breeding females this season. One of my goals is to make all the wicked cool mutations more common so the price is affordable for everyone.

When you can make a sensible argument instead of just saying we're uninformed and inexperienced you can come back. Make an informed rebuttal.

[tommy757]

the thing our buddy above just said was that his balls do fine in a small enclosure and so do all of our retics and thats the point if it works and well,why change it.
Aaron why so aggressive you show youre inexperiance and ignorance by tryin to beat up on people who dont agree with you ,oh and by the way if any of the big name guys are right not just the private keepers then retics are just fine in 8/10 foot enclosures since bobs been doing it for 30 years right along with the baldagos and tom crutchfield hell man the list goes on and on its no longer opinion when every major player in the game does it the same way and buddy you are inexperianced with maybe 10 years ive got double that also with healthy snakes and a zero mortality rate Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe im doin it right

it seems you justify the tiny tiny enclosure because you breed well congrats but the green eyed monster is starring at ya bud dont get Butt hurt

oh and in the 90,s you were still watchin barney youre first herp while I had real snakes.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Originally Posted by tommy757

oh and by the way if any of the big name guys are right not just the private keepers then retics are just fine in 8/10 foot enclosures since bobs been doing it for 30 years...

No one here said they're not "fine" in those size enclosures. People are arguing that it's not anywhere near ideal. The issue people take with it is that, despite the fact that they will survive, they won't thrive, as it is not a suitable size for such a large snake. People have decided to keep the enclosures small just because it's more convenient for them, not because it's what's best (not "fine" - best) for the snake.

Personally, I don't want something an animal will be "fine" in. My leopard gecko would be "fine" in a 10 gallon, but I keep her in a 20 long, which is almost double the floor space of what she would be "fine" in. My crocodile gecko would be "fine" in a 10 gallon, but I keep her in a 33 gallon. My kingsnake would be "fine" in a 20 high (for now), but I keep her in a 29 gallon (and will be upgrading her to something larger). I want the best for my reptiles; I want them to thrive, not be "fine." And that is where you and I differ.

~Maggot

[limey]

Originally Posted by EmbraceCalamity

No one here said they're not "fine" in those size enclosures. People are arguing that it's not anywhere near ideal. The issue people take with it is that, despite the fact that they will survive, they won't thrive, as it is not a suitable size for such a large snake. People have decided to keep the enclosures small just because it's more convenient for them, not because it's what's best (not "fine" - best) for the snake.

Personally, I don't want something an animal will be "fine" in. My leopard gecko would be "fine" in a 10 gallon, but I keep her in a 20 long, which is almost double the floor space of what she would be "fine" in. My crocodile gecko would be "fine" in a 10 gallon, but I keep her in a 33 gallon. My kingsnake would be "fine" in a 20 high (for now), but I keep her in a 29 gallon (and will be upgrading her to something larger). I want the best for my reptiles; I want them to thrive, not be "fine." And that is where you and I differ.

~Maggot

Exactly. Big snake owners/breeders can keep their retic collection in their proportionately small enclosures and let them stay alive and in reasonable health, but it's far from ideal. It's what's best for the breeder/keeper not what's best for the animal, and that is what you might call unethical. A giant snake needs it's own room with free roaming space, not a 6 foot box.

PM Bronxzoofrank - he's been working with and studying giant snakes longer than some members have been alive.

[Lankyrob]

Originally Posted by tommy757

the method that was always used when I came up was the length of the snake halved by 3 deep and 2 high so a 16 foot snake should have an 8x3x2 most people when imahining a large retic imagine twinkie from PP wher as my 15 foot female is not even in the same league which means in her cage out of 24 sq feet of floor she would be lucky if she used 4 sq feet of it and the rules that everyone keeps mentioning where did the come from and how did they become reptile law if you dont mind me asking?

Thanks for the response. The rule when i got into snakes that i have been brought up with is that the snake needs a viv that if it lies along the length it cant then reach the front of the viv. So a 5ft snake would need something as a minimum that is 3x2ft.

As a newb i assumed that this "rule" applied to all snakes and then saw pictures of (using your own example) a 16ft snake in a viv that only allows 11ft to stretch out.

This was the basis for my initial query in this thread as i wondered at what size the "rule" tha i had been told went out the window and things change.

[tommy757]

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

Thanks for the response. The rule when i got into snakes that i have been brought up with is that the snake needs a viv that if it lies along the length it cant then reach the front of the viv. So a 5ft snake would need something as a minimum that is 3x2ft.

As a newb i assumed that this "rule" applied to all snakes and then saw pictures of (using your own example) a 16ft snake in a viv that only allows 11ft to stretch out.

This was the basis for my initial query in this thread as i wondered at what size the "rule" tha i had been told went out the window and things change.

well you gotta look at it this way if the cage is 8 feet long then the sanke can double back to reach the 16 feet if she did it in a straight line wich they never do theres always a few curves in there if not loops

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by tommy757

the thing our buddy above just said was that his balls do fine in a small enclosure and so do all of our retics and thats the point if it works and well,why change it.
Aaron why so aggressive you show youre inexperiance and ignorance by tryin to beat up on people who dont agree with you ,oh and by the way if any of the big name guys are right not just the private keepers then retics are just fine in 8/10 foot enclosures since bobs been doing it for 30 years right along with the baldagos and tom crutchfield hell man the list goes on and on its no longer opinion when every major player in the game does it the same way and buddy you are inexperianced with maybe 10 years ive got double that also with healthy snakes and a zero mortality rate Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe im doin it right

it seems you justify the tiny tiny enclosure because you breed well congrats but the green eyed monster is starring at ya bud dont get Butt hurt

oh and in the 90,s you were still watchin barney youre first herp while I had real snakes.

Can you please start properly typing and making coherent sentences so I can understand your points easier. Thanks. My kiddie eyes don't read gibberish well.

First of, my argument is they shouldn't be owned in the first place. Nobody needs to own giants. Especially in tiny enclosures. As I said, if you breed, go ahead. All those people you mentioned breed for a living, I believe they are the exception to the rule. We're talking about the person who owns one or two.

It's funny how I'm "aggressive" and not just passionate in my opinion. Yet, the "informed" and "experienced" are the ones who take shots at my character and age. By the way, congratulations for being born before me I'll give you a cookie.

Also, apparently age means experience to you. I've said it multiple times that I've had experience and yet it's washed aside because I don't side with YOU. That's just sad. I'm open-minded to concede my points when given but I have yet to have a solid reason why they should be kept in general.

[tommy757]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Can you please start properly typing and making coherent sentences so I can understand your points easier. Thanks. My kiddie eyes don't read gibberish well.

First of, my argument is they shouldn't be owned in the first place. Nobody needs to own giants. Especially in tiny enclosures. As I said, if you breed, go ahead. All those people you mentioned breed for a living, I believe they are the exception to the rule. We're talking about the person who owns one or two.

It's funny how I'm "aggressive" and not just passionate in my opinion. Yet, the "informed" and "experienced" are the ones who take shots at my character and age. By the way, congratulations for being born before me I'll give you a cookie.

Also, apparently age means experience to you. I've said it multiple times that I've had experience and yet it's washed aside because I don't side with YOU. That's just sad. I'm open-minded to concede my points when given but I have yet to have a solid reason why they should be kept in general.

well as you said you a opposed to them being kept at all so it doesnt matter that a huge portion of us use the accepted method of housing?I feel no matter what is said or how its presented you sir are a keyboard warrior who can hide in safety from a legitamite discussion and balk at anyone that has a different view on the same hobbie you sir are the reason we as a hobbie are divided being determined to alienate those that dont agree w/ you...is that the proper response you were looking for?
One final point in youre own words if you profit from them than anything is acceptable so who here is morally bankrupt not I for keeping my animals in clean ,safe,enviroment feeding them only the best and diverse food sources.While they live in a blissful state free from parasites and predators and yes unlike you stuffed into a tub because you make money off thier suffering !Is this clear have a great day running youre puppy mill at least in principle.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by tommy757

well as you said you a opposed to them being kept at all so it doesnt matter that a huge portion of us use the accepted method of housing?I feel no matter what is said or how its presented you sir are a keyboard warrior who can hide in safety from a legitamite discussion and balk at anyone that has a different view on the same hobbie you sir are the reason we as a hobbie are divided being determined to alienate those that dont agree w/ you...is that the proper response you were looking for?
One final point in youre own words if you profit from them than anything is acceptable so who here is morally bankrupt not I for keeping my animals in clean ,safe,enviroment feeding them only the best and diverse food sources.While they live in a blissful state free from parasites and predators and yes unlike you stuffed into a tub because you make money off thier suffering !Is this clear have a great day running youre puppy mill at least in principle.

I am okay with a legit discussion the problem is who it's with, not what it's about. I have facts, honest to god FACTS about my opinions and I have YET to see one from a giant keeper. First it was "they never kill" and then I dug up 6 articles that dates back to the early 90's that they in fact have.

I'm not a keyboard warrior. I'd gladly meet anyone for an actual conversation and not some tongue wagging from a group of people who can't actual make a proper argument with facts. All I ever see are pics of huge retics with people who THINK they have some sort of control.

I don't need to alienate those who disagree with me. I actually have plenty of friends, even on this forum, who disagree with me on things and yet we get along just fine and have GREAT conversation. Heck I even made a member cry and now we have great, well thought out debates for the sheer fun of it. If you or one of the other mythical patheon wish to do so as well feel free to PM me.

Lastly, do you even know what a puppy mill is? I openly admit I'm a farmer but not a puppy mill. My animals aren't sick, bred to death, they are fed properly and clean. Not everything is acceptable for money as I've stated I don't "mill" my animals but it's okay you keep slinging mud at me and try the deflection route.It isn't working though.