Been a way for a while, have a concern

[ThirteenRavens]

Hi again gang. I've been away from the forum as I've bought a house, moved, etc...I finally got my snakes back from a friend who was caring for them while I was moving between states and my youngest ball python Dayo (I think I've posted a thread on him a while ago when I first got him) is concerning me...

long story short, when she dropped off my snakes yesterday (I wasn't home...) I came home and was livid...every water bowl was either BONE dry (not just had water dumped recently...I mean bone dry) or had a tiny bit of water left in it along with feces for who knows how long it was in there...

Regardless...I noticed today that Dayo (who is a banana spider and has had a mild wobble since I got him) has been having great difficulty keeping himself upright. He will move forward and his head falls upside down and backwards...he doesn't do this when I hold him, he is very stable when in my arms but when he's in his viv, it looks like he is throwing himself around. I know spiders wobble...my question is...can the progression of the wobble become worse? When I got him in May his head would bobble a bit but nothing like this...thanks in advance for any input...lesson learned...

Hopefully the link for the youtube video works...

https://youtu.be/ljea7eA_wbo

[TRD]

I would like to stay nice and all, but 'lesson learned' as in "don't buy spider morphs, ever" (plus a few other defective morphs) or "don't give snake for care to a friend" ..

A ball will sustain a great deal of punishment in terms of hydration, heat, or food. They are very hardy, so I doubt it's that. If they would be kept so hot that they ended up with neuro damage, other snakes would either also have symptoms or be flat out dead.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by TRD

I would like to stay nice and all, but 'lesson learned' as in "don't buy spider morphs, ever" (plus a few other defective morphs) or "don't give snake for care to a friend" ..

A ball will sustain a great deal of punishment in terms of hydration, heat, or food. They are very hardy, so I doubt it's that. If they would be kept so hot that they ended up with neuro damage, other snakes would either also have symptoms or be flat out dead.

I don't think it's the answer to "don't buy spider morphs ever". And calling the spider gene and the other ball python morphs "defective morphs" borders on cruel. They all are animals that have survived with known genetic disabilities and are the main preferred gene (spider) in a multitude of designer morphs. And the disability is one that is very variable in its severity and is manageable with proper husbandry and stress reduction. Just the reality of the "wobble" disability.

[ThirteenRavens]

I would like to stay nice and all

as in don't rely on someone else to care for your babies when they clearly don't care about anything else...

Don't worry about staying nice...trust me. I won't be relying on her to care for them again.

Her excuse as of late (with everything) has been "I've been exhausted" or "I've been depressed"............preaching to that choir big time. I'm chronically depressed and fatigued but I still manage to take care of the lives in my care regardless of how upset I am. They are literally the only things that get me out of bed any given day.

She said she hasn't seen him wobble this badly, I wonder when the last time she actually saw him was given the state everyone else was in...(as far as their vivs and such go...they seem to be doing ok, no apparent "neuro" issues or otherwise)

As I said, I've been in the process of moving between states and she had cared for them previously with no issues (that I know of...) so I'm not sure why she's having a problem now.

He has finally settled down (he was doing this the majority of the day) and I've covered his viv with a heavy towel to help keep light and the view of me/the dogs moving around to a minimum.

Hopefully he will be ok

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by ThirteenRavens

as in don't rely on someone else to care for your babies when they clearly don't care about anything else...

Don't worry about staying nice...trust me. I won't be relying on her to care for them again.

Her excuse as of late (with everything) has been "I've been exhausted" or "I've been depressed"............preaching to that choir big time. I'm chronically depressed and fatigued but I still manage to take care of the lives in my care regardless of how upset I am. They are literally the only things that get me out of bed any given day.

She said she hasn't seen him wobble this badly, I wonder when the last time she actually saw him was given the state everyone else was in...(as far as their vivs and such go...they seem to be doing ok, no apparent "neuro" issues or otherwise)

As I said, I've been in the process of moving between states and she had cared for them previously with no issues (that I know of...) so I'm not sure why she's having a problem now.

He has finally settled down (he was doing this the majority of the day) and I've covered his viv with a heavy towel to help keep light and the view of me/the dogs moving around to a minimum.

Hopefully he will be ok

ThirteenRavens, regardless of how others feel about the wobble you will have to grapple with it in your own way and decide if you want to manage the animals disability. The controversy will remain either way about owning, breeding, and ethics in keeping the spider gene morphs. No one should sway you in your decision if you plan to go forward. On the same token, you should not let anyone tell you it is or it isn't depending on how you feel. Good luck with him.

[Aaron_S]

The wobble could just have progressed. It happens.

[Albert Clark]

The wobble in the spider gene can also be magnified if the animal is stressed. So the proper care and feedings now that they are back in your care may lessen the presentation. Proper temps and humidity, hides and overall cleanliness will all help.

[TRD]

breeding something with a known lesser quality of life (and god knows how they experience it) is not ethical. These morphs are bred for 1 reason, and one reason alone: $

And Ps. I'm not calling all other bp morphs 'defective', just those with known neuro issues.

Think of it what you will, but it's still not ethical what is being done.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by TRD

breeding something with a known lesser quality of life (and god knows how they experience it) is not ethical. These morphs are bred for 1 reason, and one reason alone: $

And Ps. I'm not calling all other bp morphs 'defective', just those with known neuro issues.

Think of it what you will, but it's still not ethical what is being done.

Not to derail the thread, but I have a nephew with a genetic disability. That doesn't sentence him to a poor quality of life. In fact, he was in a wheelchair with motor/ muscular twitching in his lower limbs and negligible limb control. Through therapy, and the desire to get better, he is out of the wheelchair and walking on his own. He confided in me once that the worst part of his life was when people treated him as a deformity and not a person. I don't own a spider morph at the moment, but my nephew who is also a breeder of reptiles, and I, are considering a trade very soon and it involves a Spied morph. Can't wait.

[regi375]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Not to derail the thread, but I have a nephew with a genetic disability. That doesn't sentence him to a poor quality of life. In fact, he was in a wheelchair with motor/ muscular twitching in his lower limbs and negligible limb control. Through therapy, and the desire to get better, he is out of the wheelchair and walking on his own. He confided in me once that the worst part of his life was when people treated him as a deformity and not a person. I don't own a spider morph at the moment, but my nephew who is also a breeder of reptiles, and I, are considering a trade very soon and it involves a Spied morph. Can't wait.

There's a big difference between your nephew and a snake Albert. With your nephew, it happened by chance that he was born with those issues. With these snakes, they're being intentionally bred and born with these issues. The problem isn't that they have a disability, it's that they're being bred knowing that they're going to have a disability that affects them adversely.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by regi375

There's a big difference between your nephew and a snake Albert. With your nephew, it happened by chance that he was born with those issues. With these snakes, they're being intentionally bred and born with these issues. The problem isn't that they have a disability, it's that they're being bred knowing that they're going to have a disability that affects them adversely.

Actually a small difference but the principle scenario is very similar. The spider disability (thank you) is one that has varying degrees of severity and most are certainly not adversely affected with all due respect. I have only a vague recollection of one person that claims to of had a spider with a wobble so bad it wouldn't eat. However, that same person just culled it instead of taking suggestions on how to minimize it, so who knows how bad it really was? Then there are always the " i know a breeder", "i have a buddy", my sister's cousins aunt" rumors that you never find a source to, seems to be the same people that have desert females that lay viable eggs. Besides that, we have multi thousands of spiders that thrive perfectly fine in captivity.

[dannybgoode]

The UK is slowly getting round to stopping the sale of the spider morph and any other morph that carries the gene.

Similarly the jaguar carpets are slowly being seen as the unacceptable face of morph chasing.

I'm with TRD - there is no justification imo of breeding an animal with known debilitating genetic defects.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

The UK is slowly getting round to stopping the sale of the spider morph and any other morph that carries the gene.

Similarly the jaguar carpets are slowly being seen as the unacceptable face of morph chasing.

I'm with TRD - there is no justification imo of breeding an animal with known debilitating genetic defects.

Sounds rather harsh! I see nothing wrong with keeping spider gene morphs/combos. The vast majority of them feed and grow and live quite well despite the anthropomorphic views on their quality of life by some. I don't know of anyone who has needed to euthanize a spider for spinning or corkscrewing, in fact. I'm not saying that those severe cases don't exist, I just don't know of any. It's always up to the keeper. I find that people who are against something are going to be against it no matter what fact or argument you bring to bear.

[dannybgoode]

So what does the hobby gain by breeding defective morphs? What benefit is there to doing so?

The option is there to not breed them (intentionally that is) so why bother?

[Albert Clark]

Defective???? Issues maybe or disabilities. Benefits? Unlimited. Option? Totally up to the keeper and subjective.