Just a quick point

smy_749 · 05-09-13, 07:35 PM

I decided with the new GTP not to offer a tub with 1 perch, or 3 pieces of smooth pvc or whatever. I put him in a viv with live plants, real branches and grape vine wood whatever its called, with 1 typical GTP 'perch'.

Well, he never uses the perch, and prefers the real branches with akward rough shapes and jagged points. He's also constantly exploring at night, and very fun to watch. Just figured I'd point that out for those who say they only offer what they offer because " he never moves from his perch". I think if you offered a larger viv, and lots of stuff, you would have a mobile snake on your hands.

And for those who will say he's trying to escape because the numbers are off, I thought the same at first. I left his viv open while he was roaming around and sat and watched him for almost half an hour, when he comes to the door, he would just turn around and go explore inside some more. He never left the viv in atleast 30 minutes of having it open.

Pirarucu · 05-10-13, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smy_749

I decided with the new GTP not to offer a tub with 1 perch, or 3 pieces of smooth pvc or whatever. I put him in a viv with live plants, real branches and grape vine wood whatever its called, with 1 typical GTP 'perch'.

Well, he never uses the perch, and prefers the real branches with akward rough shapes and jagged points. He's also constantly exploring at night, and very fun to watch. Just figured I'd point that out for those who say they only offer what they offer because " he never moves from his perch". I think if you offered a larger viv, and lots of stuff, you would have a mobile snake on your hands.

And for those who will say he's trying to escape because the numbers are off, I thought the same at first. I left his viv open while he was roaming around and sat and watched him for almost half an hour, when he comes to the door, he would just turn around and go explore inside some more. He never left the viv in atleast 30 minutes of having it open.

I have been telling people this forever. What do you know, if you don't force them to sit still, they don't! LOL... They prefer rougher branches mainly because they are much easier to keep a grip on than a smooth piece of plastic.
My retic has a natural setup (though it is smaller than I would like..) and is always either sleeping or on the move.

smy_749 · 05-10-13, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

I have been telling people this forever. What do you know, if you don't force them to sit still, they don't! LOL... They prefer rougher branches mainly because they are much easier to keep a grip on than a smooth piece of plastic.
My retic has a natural setup (though it is smaller than I would like..) and is always either sleeping or on the move.

Yea I don't think I'm going to offer the typical boring setups anymore. Its not worth it in my opinion to keep one and only look at it when I open the top of his tub....I was really expecting this little guy not to move much honestly. During the day he doesn't, but at night he is all over the place and baiting with his little tail haha, its too cool to watch. Red heat lamp and the cage is right next to my head when I sleep lol

pdomensis · 05-10-13, 08:19 AM

I've always wondered why someone would keep something as beautiful as a GTP but put it on something as ugly and sterile as PVC or a closet rod.

poison123 · 05-10-13, 08:36 AM

Natural enclosures are the way to go

smy_749 · 05-10-13, 09:00 AM

I don't want to attack anyone using the sterilites. Not my intention at all. If your doing it from a cost benefit / convenience / maintenance stand point then fine, I understand. Its going to be just as healthy, and its much easier to clean and easier on the wallet if you breed them etc.

Just saying it for those who say that it won't be utilized and they like it better etc. etc. Or that its optimal.

Derek Roddy · 05-10-13, 09:57 AM

I can't speak for the snake itself...whether it "likes" natural vs unnatural because they don't have a part of the brian that tells them they "like" anything.
All they know is if they are safe or not in their environment. If they are...they're "happy".
Yes, a naturalistic setup is nice to our eyes...but, the snake doesn't know the difference from natural and unnatural. It was most likely born in an unnatural environment anyway.
The only thing unnatural from a snakes point of view is being picked up by a larger animal without being eaten. Haha.

D

bumblebat · 05-10-13, 10:06 AM

They probably don't have a preference, but snakes certainly know the difference. They're not as stupid as everyone seems to think they are. If you keep an animal in a box, that's what it is. If you give it an environment that it can interact with, they display natural behaviors.
I do natural vivs. Aside from the aesthetic appeal, I love watching my animals explore and hunt. I understand the reasoning behind tubs, I just prefer to have mine planted.

poison123 · 05-10-13, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Roddy

I can't speak for the snake itself...whether it "likes" natural vs unnatural because they don't have a part of the brian that tells them they "like" anything.
All they know is if they are safe or not in their environment. If they are...they're "happy".
Yes, a naturalistic setup is nice to our eyes...but, the snake doesn't know the difference from natural and unnatural. It was most likely born in an unnatural environment anyway.
The only thing unnatural from a snakes point of view is being picked up by a larger animal without being eaten. Haha.

D

A natural enclosure offeres a lot more then your average captive enclosure. And by "natural" I mean lots of soil to allow the snake to make its own burrow and gain moister similar to that of a monitor set up. I also provide my snakes with heat options with stacks. Top level around 140 and lower each level. To me my snakes seem much healthier. My corn will take down mice every single day if offered.

Derek Roddy · 05-10-13, 12:20 PM

It's not a matter of whether the snake is "stupid". They simply don't have the part of the brain that tells them if they "like" something or not. Their brains don't have that function.

As long as the snake has several hides (warm and cool), water, A place to bask and the right overall temps and humidity...it has what it needs to survive. It doesn't matter if the those items are natural or un natural...the snake has no idea.

Cheers,
D

poison123 · 05-10-13, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Roddy

It's not a matter of whether the snake is "stupid". They simply don't have the part of the brain that tells them if they "like" something or not. Their brains don't have that function.

As long as the snake has several hides (warm and cool), water, A place to bask and the right overall temps and humidity...it has what it needs to survive. It doesn't matter if the those items are natural or un natural...the snake has no idea.

Cheers,
D

Any proof supporting you claims?

Derek Roddy · 05-11-13, 07:19 AM

It's common snake biology. Look it up.

And, it's really not that hard to see if you really learn the animal and don't " assign" a personality to them.
That's the beauty of these animals in my opinion. If these animals could think or like things they would also know you.... The keeper.

Do a test..... Handle a rat then try to handle your snake. If it could think or like what it does it would not try to bite and wrap your hand for diner. Just like a mammal.... It would know you are a provider.
They don't.
That's because their Brain's are very different from our and they don't have all the same evolved parts that more evolved species have.

They don't have knowledge of self (a conscious or remorse.....feelings) and you would have to have that to like something.

Cheers
D

**Aaron_S** · 05-11-13, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bumblebat

They probably don't have a preference, but snakes certainly know the difference. They're not as stupid as everyone seems to think they are. If you keep an animal in a box, that's what it is. If you give it an environment that it can interact with, they display natural behaviors.
I do natural vivs. Aside from the aesthetic appeal, I love watching my animals explore and hunt. I understand the reasoning behind tubs, I just prefer to have mine planted.

Really? Snakes don't show natural behaviours in a tub? Are you sure?

My ball pythons hunt like they would normally in theirs. I'd consider that natural. They hold tight to their bodies in their bins too just like they would in nature.

I would go as far to say that they don't know the difference between the plastic tub termite mound I supply them with and if I supplied a real one. Both give the necessary amount of security.

Derek would be correct thus far.

smy_749 · 05-11-13, 07:33 AM

I think I'm going to agree with Derek on this one, from what we know at this point in time. If in the future they prove otherwise then thats fine, but when I see snakes I see an animal that evolved to be the perfect predator and stay alive, and thats basically it. If humans were small enough for our snakes to eat with ease, I don't think they would think twice about eating their owner either.

Thats why I keep snakes to observe them and marvel at how cool they are, but I don't name them and "hang out" with mine or feel the need to pet them.

For the keepers who say that their snakes do enjoy their company, and enjoy affection etc. etc. maybe Dereks argument about the rat is not the greatest. You could argue that he just gets confused etc. but when he knows its you and not a rat he loves you. The real test is to leave your snake to free roam, leave his cage open, and see how long he sticks around to be your buddy then..

As for the original topic, whether the snake will utilize his environment, know the difference, prefer one to the other, I think it may differ from species to species but we can't prove if the snake enjoys one thing more than the other, because we haven't figured out how to ask them. I was just pointing out the fact that mine utilized what was provided, rather than sitting around doing nothing. I don't know if he is having 'fun' though

Derek Roddy · 05-11-13, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smy_749

I was just pointing out the fact that mine utilized what was provided, rather than sitting around doing nothing. I don't know if he is having 'fun' though

Oh yeah they will. They'll use and inspect any and everything that comes in their cage.
I provide all my animals with a place to climb, 2 hides....sometimes 3, several different basking areas, etc....they'll use all of it.
Even the BHP which aren't known as "climbers" will be sitting on the branches I give them from time to time.
Sometimes I even give them things from the yard (bark, pile of dirt, etc) just to stimulate them.

D