Help! Egg bound, calcium deficient veiled/yemen cham

[Chu'Wuti]

A family was referred to me by a mutual friend because they are moving 2000 miles away and needed a new home for their veiled chameleon. The family acquired the chameleon as an adult of unknown age about a year ago. I posted their information on our local herp society's forum several months ago, shared it at meetings, etc., but to no avail. They are moving on the 25th, and as their last resort, on Saturday (2/9/13), they asked me to take the chameleon, saying they would give me her entire habitat and supplies as well.

Being a sucker for orphans and unwanted pets, I agreed to take her, but I am a snake-keeper and have never had a chameleon, so I'm a little nervous. After agreeing to take her Saturday, I began researching like crazy to learn as much as I can about the husbandry and feeding of veiled chameleons--read every care sheet I could find online (including those posted in this forum) and ordered books from amazon, two of which arrived yesterday. DH & I have already read through those and are trying to distill the conflicting pieces of information enough to generate a reasonable plan for caring for the chameleon.

However, to add to my sense of inadequacy, Sunday morning (2/10/13), the family discovered the chameleon on the floor of her enclosure, gray and weak.

They called me in a panic, and I recommended that they take her to Dr. Brad Minson, a herp-certified vet in Oklahoma City who is recommended by the Oklahoma City Herpetological and Invertebrate Society (of which I'm a member). He was out of town, but his office referred them to Neel Veterinary Hospital, telling them they had an exotic animal vet. I don't know whether or not that is the vet they saw, but apparently she seemed competent and comfortable with chams. Other than that, I don't have any further information about the particular vet they saw, except that a herper/pet store owner in OKC says she's

OK--not as knowledgeable as {the herp certified vet I recommended}, but better than a regular vet.

They spent $166 on her--she is calcium deficient, dehydrated, AND egg bound. She was given a calcium injection, IV fluids, and calcium drops that must be given to her daily for an unspecified length of time (I have the veterinary report and instructions). The vet also instructed that the UVB bulb be replaced. Finally, the vet told them to give her a "container that has 6-12 inches of over moist play sand in it" so she'll have a place to lay her eggs. Let me quote the entire set of instructions from the vet:

Lea presented for weakness and lethargy. She is egg bound and has low calcium. We can try medical management, but it is likely that she will need to be spayed. I have given her a calcium injection, some fluids under the skin, and am sending you home with an oral calcium supplement. Her humidity needs to be at 60-70% and her environment should be kept at 80 degrees until she is feeling better. I would recommend changing your UVB bulb, just in case it is not emitting the UVB rays that she needs. She needs a container that has 6-12 inches of very moist play sand in it- It should be moist enough that she can dig a tunnel in it and it will not collapse on her. Please see the handouts I am sending home with you for more information. Please don't hesitate to call if you have any questions or concerns.

The vet also said that she's overweight--"Body condition 6," if that means something to anyone.

The family brought the chameleon, her Exo-Terra glass enclosure, her meds, and a few crickets to my house Tuesday evening. "Lea" has been kept in an 18" x 18" x 24" GLASS enclosure with a screen top (for the year this family has had her) ; she's currently in that enclosure, as I do not (yet) have appropriate housing for her and there was no time to do anything else Tuesday.

I have ordered a 24" x 24" x 48" screen enclosure and a tray for that enclosure to rehouse Lea after she moves here; that should arrive today, but my Thursday-Friday work schedule is crazy and I won’t be able to move her into it until Saturday (unless I do it in the middle of the night . . . which would disrupt her sleep).

We bought a Zoo Med mini-combo deep dome (dual-dome) light fixture, a new UVB bulb, and an infrared bulb for that fixture. I also bought a Schefflera (one-gallon pot size; 40" from base of pot to top leaves) to put in her enclosure.

In addition, they were keeping an infrared light on above her at night . . . ACK! Everything I've read says that keeps them awake, and the vet told them that as well . . . Anyway, I have a ceramic heat emitter that we've put on the top of the cage screen for a night-time heat source in place of the infrared light, but it is only raising the temp to 77 deg F even in the glass cage. It’s an old one I hadn’t used in a long time, so apparently I need to get a new one.

Unfortunately, the “pot” the current owners provided for egg laying was only about 5" x 5" square and less than two inches deep—it was a sandwich box!

After much reading, I bought a paint bucket (clean, never used for paint), play sand, and Eco Earth. Dh & I soaked the Eco Earth and mixed it with play sand (about 75-80% sand because the Eco Earth was really wet). We filled the bucket to about 1.5 “ below the top. We also planted two small Schefflera on one side of the bucket.

Lea has been fed only gut-loaded, calcium-dusted crickets--no other inverts, no vegetable matter of any kind. This morning I tried to coax her to eat some spinach and other greens, but she is really not interested in them. I also went up to a good pet store in OKC and bought more crickets and gut-loading food—double what I had planned, because the proprietor (well-known to the local herp society as a reputable person) encouraged me to buy more and to try to feed Lea several times a day rather than only in the morning to stimulate her appetite and help her regain enough strength to lay her eggs.

Regarding Lea’s calcium deficiency: I'm not seeing the double elbows shown in some pics posted on the MBD info at another forum for chams. Nevertheless, I am concerned about what appears to be some curvature of leg bones, but I don't know enough about chams to determine whether the curvature I see is abnormal or not. The vet implied that Lea’s calcium deficiency could be contributing to her egg binding issues, though I suspect the primary issue was lack of an adequate place to lay.

Lea is to be given 0.1 ml of the calcium drops twice a day. We have been able to do that without a problem. She doesn't appreciate it, but we can do it.

Lea is able to climb and cling, though she seems to move pretty slowly, which makes me wonder if she is somewhat weak. I know that chams generally do move slowly, but I'm thinking she moves unusually slowly . . . but what do I know??? I take care of snakes, not chams, usually! Though we did end up taking on fire-bellied toads about six months ago . . . Anyway, she was up in a corner when I went back upstairs to get her for her photo op on Tuesday night, and she didn't seem to be having any difficulty hanging on to her vine and the Schefflera last night. Today she is down on the sand in the nesting container, but I haven’t seen her digging—just lying on it.

The owner of the pet store in OKC also wondered whether a shot of oxytocin might help her lay. Apparently the vet to whom Lea was taken only mentioned the possibility of spaying her for $500 and did not give Lea or mention the possibility of giving Lea a shot to stimulate egg laying. Is anyone familiar with this?

What else do I need to do to save this poor chameleon? Is there anything I'm planning that I should NOT do? I've saved a number of snakes and fire-bellied toads, but I've never had a chameleon--and I wasn't ever planning to have one, but here I am . . . just sign me,

A Sucker for an Orphan!

[Chu'Wuti]

Forgot to upload photos. Here they are:

[concinnusman]

I don't know about chameleons specifically but I have kept / bred various species of spiny lizards before. Egg laying time is always critical. Any handling/stress or inability to find a place to lay their eggs that they feel comfortable with, will cause them to retain their eggs too long and become egg bound and that can be fatal without immediate surgery to remove the eggs. Any females that have a chronic problem with this really should have their oviducts/ovaries removed but that's not going to be cheap. You have to take into consideration the age and value (and when I say value I don't just mean dollars) of the animal and decide if it's worth it.

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

Forgot to upload photos. Here they are:

The legs do look a little bowed, it is not to the extreme of severe MBD, so calcium levels aren't terrible yet, but it does look like a minor calcium deficiency, a good high output new uv bulb, and regular calcium dusting would generally sort that issue out, calcium drops on a gravid chameleon is likely to just stress it out more, resulting in her not laying the eggs, egg binding is common in female chameleons when people don't provide adequate laying sites. Apart from that she doesn't look in too bad a condition considering the cage size she was kept in, she isn't egg bound to the point where the eggs are pushing out the sides and are visible, so she still has time to lay them.

If you can sort her a bigger tank, a basking area of around 90 degrees, the bottom of the tank can drop to mid 70s without an issue, make sure she has a real deep laying area, which i see you are sorting out so that is fine, and plenty of greenary in the tank for her to feel safe, and she should do fine.

As for the feeding a varied diet is always good, but some chams are very fussy, crickets and locusts or roaches will be a good diet as long as they are gut loaded well, none of my chameleons would ever really touch any veg matter, but i know some will pick at it, but it isn't essential.

Good luck with her, if she can lay the eggs, once she has settled in she will be a great animal to watch and when she trusts you enough to hand feed, watching them aim and shoot the tongue is rather entertaining.

[concinnusman]

Yeah, multiple egg laying sites at different temperatures and moisture are important. Also very important to give her privacy and not mess with her or she won't lay. You can deal with the calcium issue later. Right now it's critical to get those eggs out.

[Chu'Wuti]

Ah. This poor cham has been multiply stressed by the move, the change in her habitat, the introduction of the bucket of sand-Eco Earth, AND the twice-a-day calcium drops . . . wow.

I'll get one more photo to post of her in the bucket, then I'm going to put a curtain around her tank to see if more privacy helps her feel safer.

[Chu'Wuti]

You can see the top of the paint bucket and Lea inside:



In the next photo, you can barely see Lea's eye. I think some of the soil has been disturbed; i.e., there seems to be a hump behind the Schefflera that wasn't there this morning when I left to get crickets. However, I can't really say for sure.



I wrapped an old shower curtain around the open walls of the tank after taking the photos in hopes she'll feel safer.

Her new big enclosure arrived this afternoon just before I got home again. Should we wait to move her until she has laid her eggs?

Should I ask the herp-certified vet about that shot to stimulate egg-laying?

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

You can see the top of the paint bucket and Lea inside:



In the next photo, you can barely see Lea's eye. I think some of the soil has been disturbed; i.e., there seems to be a hump behind the Schefflera that wasn't there this morning when I left to get crickets. However, I can't really say for sure.



I wrapped an old shower curtain around the open walls of the tank after taking the photos in hopes she'll feel safer.

Her new big enclosure arrived this afternoon just before I got home again. Should we wait to move her until she has laid her eggs?

Should I ask the herp-certified vet about that shot to stimulate egg-laying?

Personally i'd say taking her to the vet to get a shot, is going to stress her even more, and likely be worse for her than doing anything good.

I would move her into her new viv, get it all set up with the right temperatures, give her a few laying sites, if you can have another tub in there with something like soil in, as i found some chams don't like to dig in sand and will only lay in soil, and others wont lay in soil and only in sand, can be a fussy bunch, but the new tank will have better temperatures, and will allow more room for her, the good thing is that whilst she is looking to lay, she would naturally explore new areas, so a new viv shouldn't cause her too much stress as she would be looking for a better lay site. If you can pre dig a little hole in the substrate for her, so that she can carry on from that sometimes helps, but then leave her to it in her new viv, and just spray to make sure she stays well hydrated, but try not to handle at all and disturb her too much, and she should lay soon.

[concinnusman]

All the handling, picture taking, and frequent checking isn't helping.

[Chu'Wuti]

All the handling, picture taking, and frequent checking isn't helping

versus

move her into her new viv

The info is becoming contradictory.

1) She hasn't been handled at all since we moved the egg-laying bucket in on Wednesday. We quit giving her the calcium drops as recommended here.

2) I took the last set of pics when I fed & misted her, so hopefully that was less disruptive than multiple invasions.

3) Since taking the last set of pics, the only time I've even looked at her has been when I gave her crickets and/or misted her, i.e., morning, noon, night.

I would like to disturb her even less, but while she has a dripper system for water, she doesn't have an automatic mister, and we don't have the $$ to buy one yet. Considering that I had no intention of ever having a cham until one week ago when the family begged us to take her, and considering that I told them then I couldn't afford much more than new lights (I specified about $50), and considering that we have now spent over $200 on her in the past week and had to put it all on credit . . .

My feeling at this point is that waiting through the weekend before making any further changes so she can settle down might be a good plan. My DH has to build a base for the new screen enclosure before we can move her into it anyway. I'll nudge him to get that done this afternoon (he has work-related work to do this morning, and I have a street cleanup to do).

After the weekend, if she hasn't laid her eggs, I'm considering taking her to the vet . . . she definitely appears to be doing better, but the not laying worries me.

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

versus



The info is becoming contradictory.

1) She hasn't been handled at all since we moved the egg-laying bucket in on Wednesday. We quit giving her the calcium drops as recommended here.

2) I took the last set of pics when I fed & misted her, so hopefully that was less disruptive than multiple invasions.

3) Since taking the last set of pics, the only time I've even looked at her has been when I gave her crickets and/or misted her, i.e., morning, noon, night.

I would like to disturb her even less, but while she has a dripper system for water, she doesn't have an automatic mister, and we don't have the $$ to buy one yet. Considering that I had no intention of ever having a cham until one week ago when the family begged us to take her, and considering that I told them then I couldn't afford much more than new lights (I specified about $50), and considering that we have now spent over $200 on her in the past week and had to put it all on credit . . .

My feeling at this point is that waiting through the weekend before making any further changes so she can settle down might be a good plan. My DH has to build a base for the new screen enclosure before we can move her into it anyway. I'll nudge him to get that done this afternoon (he has work-related work to do this morning, and I have a street cleanup to do).

After the weekend, if she hasn't laid her eggs, I'm considering taking her to the vet . . . she definitely appears to be doing better, but the not laying worries me.

Problem is she has been moved to a new house, so that is going to cause stress. Then you are giving her a few days to adjust to this, and just as she is settling in, you are then going to be moving her again, which will start the stress process all over again, so it would be best to get it done as soon as possible, but if a base still has to be built, i'd try and get it done in the next day or so, so that she can be moved then left to settle, with no more disruptions or changes.

Taking her to the vets at the moment is likely to cause even more stress, when the eggs start pushing out the sides and you can actually see individual eggs then you should be concerned, for now i would leave her too it. Multiple laying sites, with the right temperatures, spray once in the morning, then once early evening, and put a few crickets in, not too many as her interest in food should be minimal, and crickets can disturb her if she is trying to lay.

[Chu'Wuti]

Problem is she has been moved to a new house, so that is going to cause stress. Then you are giving her a few days to adjust to this, and just as she is settling in, you are then going to be moving her again, which will start the stress process all over again, so it would be best to get it done as soon as possible

That does make a lot of sense. It'll be as if she never has a chance to get REALLY settled in.

However---she's digging! I just went up to mist her, and she was digging when I peeked over the top of the curtain around the tank, so I just backed out again without spraying her. Maybe she's digging test nest sites?

DH isn't home yet, but I'm going to give him a call to let him know we need to get that base built today. If she doesn't dig much more, I guess we'll aim to move her tomorrow.

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

That does make a lot of sense. It'll be as if she never has a chance to get REALLY settled in.

However---she's digging! I just went up to mist her, and she was digging when I peeked over the top of the curtain around the tank, so I just backed out again without spraying her. Maybe she's digging test nest sites?

DH isn't home yet, but I'm going to give him a call to let him know we need to get that base built today. If she doesn't dig much more, I guess we'll aim to move her tomorrow.

Ah if she is digging right now, leave her well alone, try not to make too much noise around her and don't worry about spraying or feeding, they often start digging in the early evening and then lay over night, so hopefully it will be tonight for you.

The important thing is, if she has laid by morning, a lot will be exhausted from the process, and get cold at the bottom of the viv away from the heat source, so once she has finished completely, you may have to lift her out and stick her up under the basking spot, and then give her a good spray down with warm water as she will likely want a long drink, then she will be able to warm up and get her activity levels back to normal.

[Chu'Wuti]

Crossing my fingers . . .

I would be greatly relieved, and so would her former family, if she did her job tonight!

[Chu'Wuti]

Lea is laying her eggs . . . on TOP of the soil. I walked in quietly to check on her this morning, and she was on top of one of the artificial vines going across the bucket. I thought she wasn't doing anything, so, as everything was dry, I decided to spray her. When I did, she moved off the vine--almost falling--and I could see two eggs on the surface of the soil behind her.

I immediately closed the cage, recurtained her, and left, but I'm really concerned . . .