The sordid story of Ryu

Ryodraco · 10-31-12, 02:11 PM

I hope this is the right place to post this, I am new here so let me know if I'm wrong.

It all started early this year, when I at last felt like I had the financial abilities to properly care for a snake. I debated between a corn snake and California kingsnake, but ended up going for the California king in part because of its smaller size enabling me to be sure my terrarium was big enough. I brought Ryu, a three foot or so long striped male, from a pet store called Plano Pets.

It was far from an impulse buy. Plano Pets are the best reptile sellers in the area that I know of and have won awards in the past, and I observed Ryu for weeks before buying him. I confirmed he was a regular feeder and one of the most active and outgoing snakes there.

Things changed once I brought him home. He rarely came out from under the aspen and seemed much less active. Yet he ate readily most of the time, even if he almost never took anything but live mice, and his sheds were fine. I chalked his shyness up to him doing what he would have done at the pet store if he had the same amount of room there to hide. So I was overall satisfied and things continued like this for months.

Then about four months ago things took a turn for the worse. Ryu refused to eat. This was not new, but unlike in the past he didn’t accept the food later in the day or the next day, or the next week. Week after week passed. He shed but did not eat afterward. He had no apparent injuries or other health problems. I asked for advice on a reptile forum, and due to this advice added the moss box in hopes it would help him be more comfortable. Mostly I was told to just keep waiting and offering food. Months passed. I tried different sizes of mice, live and dead. I tried a fuzzy rat. All to no avail. Ryu would tongue flick them a bit sometimes but that was it. Otherwise he ignored or retreated from them.

Four months passed, Ryu was feeling noticeably less muscular when I held him, and acted weaker. He was also irritable, biting me for the first time (I actually was pleased when he did, hoping it meant he would bite the mouse too, but while he did strike at it he did not follow through). I decided it was time for the last resort, taking him back to Plano Pets to be force fed.

It was the first time I had transported him since bringing him home from the pet store, and I used the same cloth bag. However, I must have not tied it tight enough, as he somehow escaped from the bag without me noticing while I was driving to the store (a good half hour drive). Into the dashboard was the most likely place he ended up (there are no spaces under the seats for him to hide as far as I can tell and it’s a small car), and the main reptile guy at Plano Pets was confident he would come out eventually, but with this prolonged fast Ryu has been under I am not confident for his survival. That’s assuming that he didn’t somehow get into the engine from the dash as well, in which case there is no hope.

It’s been a good week since then with no sign of him, and it’s been getting into the forties at night so I fear the worst. No bad smell yet though so if he is in there he is still alive…

So, whether I find him or end up having to get another snake I want to know what I can do differently. Below are things I am considering:

1. Removing the moss box/using newspapers instead.
Perhaps I made things too humid? Perhaps the moss box should only be put in when the snake is in a shed cycle and I should put newspapers over the screen top the rest of the time? Or perhaps I should put newspapers on the screen top and keep the moss hide?

2. More frequent handling.
I read to not handle a snake for around 3 to 4 days after it has eaten, and to not handle it the day before feeding. But perhaps this was excessive as it meant I often did not handle Ryu more than once a week, and even less than that quite often. Perhaps a lack of consistent handling made him fearful all the time? He was always quite amicable when I was handling him, but never got over tail rattling when picking him up or having my hand in the terrarium, and he musked on occasion as well. Once he started fasting I handled him even less, thinking it would reduce his stress, but perhaps this had the opposite effect?

3. Somehow blacking out the back/sides of the terrarium/applying a background.
The terrarium came with a foam rock background that Ryu immediately dislodged and damaged in the process so I threw it out. But perhaps a lack of anything on the sides but clear glass had to do with why he came out so much less than at the pet store? If so then the question is what to cover the glass with. Should it be black or another color, or one of those naturalistic static-cling desert backgrounds? Should I cover the sides as well and if so with what?

Attached below are photos of the terrarium as it currently is. Note that the moss hide currently has no moss in it but would normally be filled with damp sphagnum moss. Below it is the sensor for the thermostat controlling the undertank heater, which was set to about 88 degrees.

Terranaut · 10-31-12, 03:05 PM

Well I have to say a few things.
First off he was in your car and you couldn't find him? Please. I would have the interior ripped out before I gave up. Brutal. The reason he didn't come out was because his cage is all open. You got to cover the sides and back. Research a snake before getting one. Kings will sometimes spend lots of time just sitting in their hides. He hid under the aspen because you provide almost no cover. Is your heat mat in the middle? Did you provide a heat gradient so he could thermoregulate? Man I hate to chew on people here but you killed your snake. If you get another please learn how to take care of it first.

Ryodraco · 10-31-12, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Well I have to say a few things.
First off he was in your car and you couldn't find him? Please. I would have the interior ripped out before I gave up. Brutal. The reason he didn't come out was because his cage is all open. You got to cover the sides and back. Research a snake before getting one. Kings will sometimes spend lots of time just sitting in their hides. He hid under the aspen because you provide almost no cover. Is your heat mat in the middle? Did you provide a heat gradient so he could thermoregulate? Man I hate to chew on people here but you killed your snake. If you get another please learn how to take care of it first.

I did research, extensively (or at least I thought I did). I also asked online on another snake forum (the South Texas Reptiles forum) about my set up and the only addition that was recommended was the moss hide (I had previously been just putting moss in the rock hide). They also said my snake looked healthy (this was a few months ago). Kingsnake updates

And it was Jlassiter advising me there so I am quite sure he knew what he was talking about.

And while the cage being open did occur to me, nothing I read had references to it needing to be covered up (beyond noting it could be done for personal aesthetics), let alone to it being all important. Further most set-ups in books I read had photos of terrariums about as "open" as mine is.

Now I would like to cover up the sides and back, hence my question of how best to do that.

The heat mat is on the right side of the terrarium bottom (you can see it in the photo). I also got a temperature gun to make sure the thermostat worked properly.

And no I have not given up. I have taken apart what I can of the dashboard with no luck. The initial advice I got was to wait for him to come out on his own so I have been following that.

<><><>

I also forgot to note in the first post that Ryu did continue to defecate routinely a long time after his fast started, so a blockage seems unlikely (not that you suggested that, it was jsut something I cosnidered). Judging by what you are saying it seems it may have been stress that caused the fast, but let it be noted my room is very quiet with little foot traffic. Again, the terrarium being too open was never something I was told was a problem.

Jlassiter · 10-31-12, 06:07 PM

The OP has asked many questions and had an adequate set up by his description.
I offered him all I could without actually seeing the set up in person and adjusting what may have been off....

Sorry it didn't work out, but don't let that deter you from getting another king...

Ryodraco · 10-31-12, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jlassiter

The OP has asked many questions and had an adequate set up by his description.
I offered him all I could without actually seeing the set up in person and adjusting what may have been off....

Sorry it didn't work out, but don't let that deter you from getting another king...

Many thanks for your support. I'm quite willing to accept I made mistakes and act accordingly, but I was not prepared to be accused of being uninformed and foolish here as I tried hard not to be.

Jlassiter · 10-31-12, 06:31 PM

Yea.....that guy doesn't have a clue how much info we shared.... He/she is very quick to prejudge.

infernalis · 10-31-12, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryodraco

Many thanks for your support. I'm quite willing to accept I made mistakes and act accordingly, but I was not prepared to be accused of being uninformed and foolish here as I tried hard not to be.

We all are "uninformed and foolish" at one point. Even the most hardcore reptile keepers have lost animals during learning curves.

I find it upsetting when the more seasoned keepers forget the sometimes embarrassing situations they once allowed to happen in their own history.

shaunyboy · 10-31-12, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Well I have to say a few things.
First off he was in your car and you couldn't find him? Please. I would have the interior ripped out before I gave up. Brutal. The reason he didn't come out was because his cage is all open. You got to cover the sides and back. Research a snake before getting one. Kings will sometimes spend lots of time just sitting in their hides. He hid under the aspen because you provide almost no cover. Is your heat mat in the middle? Did you provide a heat gradient so he could thermoregulate? Man I hate to chew on people here but you killed your snake. If you get another please learn how to take care of it first.

^^^^
i feel that was a tad harsh mate.... (i don't want to argue and i'm not being cheeky)

a new snake owner,has come on here for the first time and been COMPLETELY HONEST with us,i feel theres no need to tare them a new arsehole mate

theres plenty folk made mistakes allowing a snake to escape,also Jlassiter imo is a GOOD mentor to have

re the car
theres a post on a UK forum,where the guy tore out the WHOLE interior,dash,consoles,etc wrecking a ford mondeo car and they still did NOT find the snake,they even had the local fire brigade out with thermal imaging and heat sensitive equiptment,to see if the snake was in the panels,chassis of the car and still no snake

re heat mat
your correct in pointing out,that it looks like the heat mat was in the middle of the tank,but you could have advised on where it should be placed..OP the heat mat should be a 3rd the way under one end of the tank...this creates a hot end and a cool end,allowing the snake to thermoregulate at a temperature of it's choosing

re covering the tank
as said,it would have been better if you covered,the back and both sides of the tank with paper,this would make the snake feel more secure,so more chance of it being less stressed and eating,there have been times i've had a nervous feeder,where i've had to cover the whole tank,leaving only a 5 inch square at the front of the tank uncovered

also a few more hides,fake plants,etc to bulk up the tank,giving the snake more hiding places,again this will make it feel more secure and less stressed

to the op
under handling a snake will NOT put it off food,or make it fearful all the time....

i only handle my snakes when 100% neccessary,that said its ALWAYS best to NOT handle a snake,until its eating regular,i always suggest waiting until a snakes eaten 3 or 4 feeds in a row,before regular handling

a snake feels MORE secure and LESS stressed if it's left ALONE,in peace and quiet

you have made a few honest mistakes,so please don't beat yourself up over it,imo we learn more from mistakes than our successes at times

imo its unlikely you will find your snake now,that said stranger things have happened in the snake world

^^^^
the above is merely my opinion folks

cheers shaun

Jlassiter · 10-31-12, 06:36 PM

Like------^

shaunyboy · 10-31-12, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jlassiter

Like------^

thanks mate...

imo tearing a new arse on NEW snake keeper,who have been honest,forthcoming and put a lot of effort into researching,is NOT the way THIS forum operates...

it was GOOD to see Wayne come in so quickly,considering he just went through a superstorm (kudo's mate)

cheers shaun

KORBIN5895 · 10-31-12, 07:19 PM

Well Ryodraco, my only advice is to pick John's brain as much as you can. It seems he is willing to take you in under his wing and I personally would jump on that with both feet.

Terranaut · 10-31-12, 08:10 PM

Ok. Maybe I was a bit harsh. It truly hurts me when I see a first post from someone and its about how they lost an animal and not how can I help it. When I see stuff about it being left in the car and 40 degrees at night I get real upset because I personaly would have gone to much great lengths to find it. This was post 1 for the op and it is a sad story. Its just very sad to hear a snake lost in this way. So yes I apologize to the op for being harsh. I'm just very disapointed it ends with a king lost in a car and most likely dead. Next time post husbandry questions BEFORE this happens not stories of how tradgic it ends

Ryodraco · 10-31-12, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

OP the heat mat should be a 3rd the way under one end of the tank...this creates a hot end and a cool end,allowing the snake to thermoregulate at a temperature of it's choosing

Just to be clear the heat mat isn't in the center, albeit the sensor for the thermostat is on the outer edge of where the heat mat is placed.

Basically my right half of the tank has the heat mat under it, the other half doesn't.

Quote:

re covering the tank
as said,it would have been better if you covered,the back and both sides of the tank with paper,this would make the snake feel more secure,so more chance of it being less stressed and eating

Again I'd like to do this, but how best to do it? You say paper but what kind? How can I attach it securely? What color should it be? Has anyone tried the static-cling backings they sell at pet stores? Even that though wouldn't solve covering the sides...

Quote:

also a few more hides,fake plants,etc to bulk up the tank,giving the snake more hiding places,again this will make it feel more secure and less stressed

I did have a big grapevine branch in there but when I added the large moss hide there was no longer room for it. I can get another that will fit or try cutting the existing one.

As for other hides I am not sure where they could go unless I took out some of the other stuff in there.

Quote:

to the op
under handling a snake will NOT put it off food,or make it fearful all the time....

i only handle my snakes when 100% neccessary,that said its ALWAYS best to NOT handle a snake,until its eating regular,i always suggest waiting until a snakes eaten 3 or 4 feeds in a row,before regular handling

a snake feels MORE secure and LESS stressed if it's left ALONE,in peace and quiet

This was what I believed to be the general case, and I still do, yet a seemingly authoritative book on corn snakes I looked at recently went on for some time on the many benefits of handling, which included making the snakes less nervous, exercising them, helping them digest and defecate more easily, and even improving egg laying etc. I'm not saying I agree, but I don't discount it fully either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

Well Ryodraco, my only advice is to pick John's brain as much as you can. It seems he is willing to take you in under his wing and I personally would jump on that with both feet.

He has taught me a lot but as he said he has done all he can without being there in person so I rather not risk overdoing it with the questions.

I didn't even know he was on this forum until after I joined and posted this topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Ok. Maybe I was a bit harsh. It truly hurts me when I see a first post from someone and its about how they lost an animal and not how can I help it. When I see stuff about it being left in the car and 40 degrees at night I get real upset because I personaly would have gone to much great lengths to find it. This was post 1 for the op and it is a sad story. Its just very sad to hear a snake lost in this way. So yes I apologize to the op for being harsh. I'm just very disapointed it ends with a king lost in a car and most likely dead. Next time post husbandry questions BEFORE this happens not stories of how tradgic it ends

No hard feelings, but just to be clear I did ask most of these questions and others on another forum before all this happened. Basically I am asking again here in hopes of learning more and seeing what I somehow missed.

As for the cold nights, it was a bad coincidence that he went missing the very day a cold front struck. It didn't last long though so he may have survived it, but there is still no sign of him...

rmfsnakes32 · 10-31-12, 08:29 PM

You need to pull up thr carpet on the floorboards and remove the entire das (take pics pf it as you gp so you will know where everything goes righy back together) and good like I I had to guess he is up under thee dash where the fuse box is some of those wires are hot at all times good juck

Terranaut · 10-31-12, 10:16 PM

Ok well here I will try to be more constructive.
Have you pulled out the back seat? The floor under the seat gets warm from the fuel pump and its like a hide there. They can also access the trunk there so check the trunk. I have my fingers crossed for you but man 40 degrees at night.