Egg binding. Any sort of DIY advice?

[Dehlida]

I have a big female pit- she's never been bred and I've had her for a long time. She's always been a great captive with an amazing appetite. A couple months ago she went off feed- which wasn't a huge concern in my eyes and I figured she'd come around eventually but come to find out about a week ago she's obviously gravid with a clutch of infertiles- and by clutch I count around 12.

Normally this wouldn't be a problem- moist lay box yada yada however, she has scale damage at her cloaca preventing her from passing eggs on her own (which is why I was never going to breed her). So after a week I've managed to get 4 out, as soon as one peaks out I can get it the rest of the way and free her.

Any sort of home remedies for this sort of thing? I'd hate to lose her as she's a beautiful snake, but at the same time I'm basically at a loss on how to get the eggs out of her safely, and I'm starting to think dispatching her may be the best option...

[Lankyrob]

Surely a vet would be a better option than euthanizing the snake? They should be able to get the eggs out with minimal damage to the snake.

[Dehlida]

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

Surely a vet would be a better option than euthanizing the snake? They should be able to get the eggs out with minimal damage to the snake.

Not a fan of this route, not willing to spend a fortune on vet bills for a snake that may or may not recover ok. Not to mention the fact it undergoes pain the entire time, and while it heals, not to mention this problem is probable to pop up again in the future.

[Lankyrob]

Sorry - are you saying it is in constant pain anyway? Without the egg binding?

[Dehlida]

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

Sorry - are you saying it is in constant pain anyway? Without the egg binding?

With mammals we can treat pain with various drugs, after surgery you go through a time with lots of pain meds + bedrest. Take a snake, cut its belly open and remove the eggs and stitch it closed. It doesn't get pain meds, as you can't really dose a reptile for it. Not only that- but it has to slither on it's stitched wound until it fully heals up. Now add in the fact it will probably happen again next year. Pretty bad way to live.

I'm not a fan of vets at all (and I'm taking vet courses). A lot of the money dumped into certain animals simply because of the emotional attachment is pretty dumb in my opinion. I had a friend invest a ton into medicating an old sick dog only to have it die. Even if it recovered it was another year tops to live, all the while in lots of pain. I think adopting another dog + supporting a local shelter would have been a better use of a few thousand dollars...

[reptile65]

Originally Posted by Dehlida

With mammals we can treat pain with various drugs, after surgery you go through a time with lots of pain meds + bedrest. Take a snake, cut its belly open and remove the eggs and stitch it closed. It doesn't get pain meds, as you can't really dose a reptile for it. Not only that- but it has to slither on it's stitched wound until it fully heals up. Now add in the fact it will probably happen again next year. Pretty bad way to live.

I'm not a fan of vets at all (and I'm taking vet courses). A lot of the money dumped into certain animals simply because of the emotional attachment is pretty dumb in my opinion. I had a friend invest a ton into medicating an old sick dog only to have it die. Even if it recovered it was another year tops to live, all the while in lots of pain. I think adopting another dog + supporting a local shelter would have been a better use of a few thousand dollars...

It's all about quality of life. As long as the animal still seems like it wants to live and has a decent quality of life, I believe you should do your best to help it out.

Egg binding in snakes can be fixed without major surgery and the snake would have a very good chance of recovering fully. The eggs can be aspirated with a needle so that they are easier to pass. I personally wouldn't euthanize a snake due to egg binding unless the problem got very severe.

Also, I'm a future veterinarian and an employee at an animal hospital, so I can't understand why you "aren't a fan of vets at all". Vets spend their lives trying to help animals have the best lives possible and I don't know what we as pet owners would do without them.

[Dehlida]

Originally Posted by reptile65

It's all about quality of life. As long as the animal still seems like it wants to live and has a decent quality of life, I believe you should do your best to help it out.

Egg binding in snakes can be fixed without major surgery and the snake would have a very good chance of recovering fully. The eggs can be aspirated with a needle so that they are easier to pass. I personally wouldn't euthanize a snake due to egg binding unless the problem got very severe.

Also, I'm a future veterinarian and an employee at an animal hospital, so I can't understand why you "aren't a fan of vets at all". Vets spend their lives trying to help animals have the best lives possible and I don't know what we as pet owners would do without them.

I'm not a fan of using vets I should say, I have no problem with vets as people or what they do. I disagree with the vast majority of things PEOPLE do based upon emotional attachment, not what is best for the actual animal. I will be trying the aspiration thing and seeing if that works. She has a huge clutch and it may be too far along, but I'm not made of money, and I certainly would never sink a ton of money into a snake.

[Will0W783]

While I do understand your opinion, Dehilda, I think that this may not be the forum for you. Most people here consider their snakes primarily their pets, and get offended at views like yours. I have several large-scale snake breeder friends who would agree with you. Have you checked out the Bush League Breeders' Club? There is a thread on egg-binding in carpet pythons by Mike Curtin on there.

I wish you the best of luck, however, I am personally irritated by your attitude. The snake will not be in constant pain if it is properly cared for, and once your snake has had an episode of egg binding that required veterinary intervention, you SHOULD NOT breed it again. So it wont' happen again next year, because if you are responsible to the animal, you won't breed it again.

What would you prefer? Letting it suffer, slowly and painfully dying in its cage, rather than take it to a vet and "sink money into it"? People that keep snakes, or any animal for that matter, just for the money and refuse to see the creatures as living, breathing, feeling animals, just disgust me. I wish you the best of luck, and I hope that your snake recovers and is not bred again. But your attitude towards the animal's well-being has p*ssed me off.

[Dehlida]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

While I do understand your opinion, Dehilda, I think that this may not be the forum for you. Most people here consider their snakes primarily their pets, and get offended at views like yours. I have several large-scale snake breeder friends who would agree with you. Have you checked out the Bush League Breeders' Club? There is a thread on egg-binding in carpet pythons by Mike Curtin on there.

It's a difference of opinion, doesn't mean my information nor the information I gain from others here is less valueable.

I wish you the best of luck, however, I am personally irritated by your attitude. The snake will not be in constant pain if it is properly cared for, and once your snake has had an episode of egg binding that required veterinary intervention, you SHOULD NOT breed it again. So it wont' happen again next year, because if you are responsible to the animal, you won't breed it again.

Clearly you didn't take the time to read the entire post. I did not breed this snake, it has never had contact with a male of any sort at any time in its life, for the specific reason that it has scale damage and could NOT pass eggs. She has 100% infertile eggs. I'm personally irritated that you couldn't bother to read the entire post and instead want to point fingers.

What would you prefer? Letting it suffer, slowly and painfully dying in its cage, rather than take it to a vet and "sink money into it"? People that keep snakes, or any animal for that matter, just for the money and refuse to see the creatures as living, breathing, feeling animals, just disgust me. I wish you the best of luck, and I hope that your snake recovers and is not bred again. But your attitude towards the animal's well-being has p*ssed me off.

Again, the snake was never bred. However, at this point, I'm attemping to remove the eggs myself. Not everyone who keeps snakes sees several hundred dollars worth of vet bills as worth it, the same way people with dogs feel after theirs is hit by a car. Can you repair the dog? Sure, do people always have the money, nope, and the dog is put down FREQUENTLY because of this issue.

My pets get full vet care, hell my dog just got out of the vet after spending a bunch of money when she was attacked by another dog. However, going out and spending a small fortune on every animal I come across that is injured, rather than making the judgement of putting some of them down humanely simpy isn't practical. Get off your high horse.

[Will0W783]

Dehilda, I'm sorry I misread the post. I thought you had bred it yourself and were refusing to get it proper veterinary care. I am sorry I offended you, but I still see no difference between a snake and a dog. I personally have spent a small fortune when one of my snakes gets ill. But then you're right- it is a difference in opinion. If you didn't breed the snake, then it isn't your fault and I'm sorry I jumped down your throat. I feel like a bit of a heel now.

As for help and advice..have you tried warm soaks?

[ilovemypets1988]

ok so to summarise:

shes gravid with non fertile eggs,
eggs get stuck
you get 4 eggs out urself while more are still stuck inside her

you wont spend money on getting this sorted and to get the snake well again, even though its a living breathing animal.

so why exactly do you have the snake in the first place, im not trying to offend anyone, just trying to get a point across.

[Dehlida]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

Dehilda, I'm sorry I misread the post. I thought you had bred it yourself and were refusing to get it proper veterinary care. I am sorry I offended you, but I still see no difference between a snake and a dog. I personally have spent a small fortune when one of my snakes gets ill. But then you're right- it is a difference in opinion. If you didn't breed the snake, then it isn't your fault and I'm sorry I jumped down your throat. I feel like a bit of a heel now.

As for help and advice..have you tried warm soaks?

I would never purposefully put the snake into harms way only to deny it proper care. I got the snake with the hope this would never happen, but somethings these things do.

I've been keeping up warm soaks daily, along with a moist hide box with plenty of lay material and extra water in the enclosure in a larger water pan. So far I've extracted 3 eggs myself, and she passed one smaller one on her own in her water dish. Only the first egg was calcified, the rest are someone easy, but I will say- these eggs are massive, probably 3 inches long and easily 1.5 inches across.

[Dehlida]

Originally Posted by ilovemypets1988

ok so to summarise:

shes gravid with non fertile eggs,
eggs get stuck
you get 4 eggs out urself while more are still stuck inside her

you wont spend money on getting this sorted and to get the snake well again, even though its a living breathing animal.

so why exactly do you have the snake in the first place, im not trying to offend anyone, just trying to get a point across.

I have a difference in beliefs. If this snake was my pet, an animal I had a deep emotional attachement to, such as my water monitor, I'd have no issue taking it to the vet. However no, I'm not the type of person to rush off every animal I own to a vet.

I'm the type of person- when I encounter wildlife hit by a car, I put it out of its misery. My girlfriend tries to save it. Both views are accepted by different people and both are 100% fine.

[Will0W783]

Hmm, I wonder why she became gravid with infertiles. Poor thing. I am really sorry I came across so harsh- I get angry too when people attack me. I just got a different impression from what you wrote than you meant...I will be more careful in noting details before I get upset next time. :-/

It sounds like you are doing all you can. Here is a link to the egg-binding thread on BLBC I mentioned. It's by a good friend of mine. Eggbound Jungle: Treatment and Outcome - Bush-League Breeders Club
I don't know if it will help you...I can't remember all the details, but I remember that it had good advice in it. Thankfully I haven't had to deal with egg-binding yet, and hope I never do.

[Will0W783]

btw, I still think you should take her to the vet. I do understand your viewpoint, but I think she still has a good chance of survival, so why not take the chance and give her the best shot?