larger bodied snakes and uth

Damion930 · 03-14-11, 05:19 PM

So just came across this in another thread and instead of high jacking I figured id start a new thread. Someone posted not to use heat mats with large bodied snakes because of thermal blocking the idea being heat will be blocked and build causing overheating. As I keep Enki my retic and use a uth it made me kinda curious as I am aware of other large snake owners that use them. What are your thoughts.

Jenn_06 · 03-14-11, 05:33 PM

i use uth with my retics and burm and dont see how its going to overheat if you have a good thermostat that will cut off power of drop temp if it gets too hot.

Damion930 · 03-14-11, 05:47 PM

Those wher my thoughts to just wanted to bring it out without taking over the other thread seems as if ther has ben a lot of that happening lately

Dave69 · 03-14-11, 05:58 PM

Thermal blocking is a problem with larger snakes, it is something that can to a point be controlled with a stat, but, if the probe is not on the hot spot, it can be missed by it. Also, if the probe gets moved off the mat, then the stat has no control anway. The blocking happens when the heat from the mat cannot go anywhere, and it builds up, like a cumulative sort of thing, mats have been known to reach silly temps in quite a short space of time.
there have been a couple of instances that i know of, once being a large Burm, kept in a cold room, on a mat, it suffered so many burns that it had to be pts, the other being an experiment, and the mat reached 210 degrees C, subsequently its not only melted, but shorted itself and burned the table it was on, i cant provide you a link to where i saw it, because i cant remember which forum it was on!
the point is, thermal blocking happens, especially with much larger bodied snakes, and as such, i wouldnt risk it. All my boas that are in vivs have bulbs instead of mats for that reason.

TCS-bot · 03-14-11, 06:11 PM

Thermal blocking can occur with heatmats even if correctly stat'd.
It's all about HOW the snake will position itself on the mat when it's probed.

If you take a mat out and stat it and plug it in and get 2 temp probes, then put something heavy on the mat with a temp probe and nothing where the stat probe and 2nd temp probe is and leave for 30 mins or so and have a look at the difference in temp.
This more so will happen with larger bodied snakes due to them apparently needing larger mats.

I did have a discussion with someone a while back about a similar thing when they tried to say "a probe for a lamp will get covered by a large snakes body" and yes it will, however larger bodied snakes instinctively know that they need to bask under the sun (or lamp) to warm up and when they get to hot, they will move.
They very rarely notice that the underside of them is burning when the top of their body is fairly cool, which is why thermal blocking burns can occur.

/edited to add:

I have a 4ft heatmat that I *could* use in a large viv with a larger bodied snake, if the stat probe is in the middle of the mat and the snake sits more on one end, then that section will get hotter. Mats (or UTH) work via contact heat.

Damion930 · 03-14-11, 06:26 PM

Curious are you saying how the snake positons its self on the matt as in direct contact with the matt

Glasgow Corns · 03-14-11, 06:45 PM

my comments on the other thread, as assume it was on the boa thread you saw the thermal blocking, are in relation to heat mats, in the UK the heat mats are placed within the wooden vivs with a covering of substrate. My understanding on UTH is that they are placed below the tank hence the name under tank heaters, so apologies if ive confused anyone with this translation if you will. The OP mentioned heatmats so my response was directed accordingly,

And agree with tcs-bot, carry out the experiment its an easy experiment to do.

I have also read on another forum, as i dont use habistat heat mats, that they have a warning saying do not use heat mats with large bodies snakes as they accept that thermal blocking can occur.

not sure on posting links to other forums here but can link to a few threads on another forum if mods approve and is not against the rules

Lankyrob · 03-14-11, 06:46 PM

The uk say heatat and the us say uth, both meaning tne same thing as far as i am aware from reading this forum.

Glasgow Corns · 03-14-11, 06:52 PM

thanks lankyrob, in that case then yes I would not be using a UTH either with large bodied reptiles, while it may not be an overly common occurrence it is still a risk i wouldn't take with reptiles.

edit: I am not saying you must not keep your reps on mats, all im suggesting is that there is a risk to the animals health an would not personally recommend using mats

TCS-bot · 03-14-11, 06:58 PM

Ah yes, neglected to think about any possibilities of a uth and mat being different, so will assume they are the same.
With mats inside a wooden viv, the thermal blocking can occur with a larger bodied snake resting on a mat due to the time it takes for the heat to transfer in their bodies which is when thermal blocking burns could occur.
Smaller bodied snakes don't have that issue as they warm up a lot faster.

On glass tanks it could be different as the heat source will be under the glass, heating all the glass in it's entirety that's in contact with it, so the stat *should* still shut the power off to the heat source regardless of where the snake is in contact with it. THe only issue I can see with that is the chance that the snake might not be warmed up enough so will have to wait for the next power cycle of the stat, unless pulse stat'd of course.

Damion930 · 03-14-11, 08:09 PM

Ah gottcha that makes sence. I think the same warning is found on the lable here in regards to direct contact and weight being an issue. Its always ben my understanding that it is risky for ther to be the possibility of direct contact with any heat source. I think most have some form of separation between the uth heat matt or other not letting the weight or snake itself to rest on the matt.

infernalis · 03-14-11, 08:12 PM

because you put the mat under the tank.

Hence UTH - Under Tank Heater

Jendee · 03-14-11, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

because you put the mat under the tank.

Hence UTH - Under Tank Heater

LOL! I was thinkin the same thing"..ummm..guys" you never want to put a heat source in the cage with your animal, one of the main reasons heat rocks went out of style. Its important that you put the uth under the cage..for tubs its safe to be directly on the flexx watt but on cages you want to put feet on the cage so the flexx watt can breath and doesn't trap heat under the cage to burn up.
I have large boas some up to 7 ft. I have always used uth (flexx watt with a ranco) and have never had a problem.

again..never put the heat source in with your animals

TCS-bot · 03-14-11, 10:30 PM

Never put the heat source in with the animals???

In that case would it be wise for me to remove my heatlamps out of my vivs?
Would the heatmats still function through 18mm thick contiboard??
Looks like I shall have to have a total rethink of of my stack, and while I'm at it, I should remove the radiator from the kitchen where the dogs sleep, the heat tube from the fishy tanks and the fireplace from in the lounge where the cat sleeps.

I'm sorry (not really) for seemingly taking the pee a bit with the above phrasing, but if someone could tell me then how the jimmy to use an heatmat and show that it works in a wooden viv without putting it inside the viv, then I will listen.

infernalis · 03-14-11, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCS-bot

Never put the heat source in with the animals???

In that case would it be wise for me to remove my heatlamps out of my vivs?
Would the heatmats still function through 18mm thick contiboard??
Looks like I shall have to have a total rethink of of my stack, and while I'm at it, I should remove the radiator from the kitchen where the dogs sleep, the heat tube from the fishy tanks and the fireplace from in the lounge where the cat sleeps.

I'm sorry (not really) for seemingly taking the pee a bit with the above phrasing, but if someone could tell me then how the jimmy to use an heatmat and show that it works in a wooden viv without putting it inside the viv, then I will listen.

Isn't it customary if you have a wooden viv (or boaphile cage) to place a tile or something over the mat?

Just asking.