Pros/Cons of Popular Antibiotics

Will0W783 · 07-15-10, 09:08 AM

Hi,
I have been hearing a lot and talking a lot with some of my more established breeder friends, and was wondering how everyone here feels about certain antibiotics.

I usually use Amikacin as a first course, but I know it can be rough on kidneys. I have treated quite a few snakes with it when I had a nasty run of RIs last year that swept through my herp room, and not one of them died. I would give nightly warm water soaks along with a hot/humid cage and injection every 3 days.

I have also used Baytril with not so nice outcomes. I had a jungle/diamond yearling that had a very bad RI 3 years ago when I first started really building my collection. I tried a hotter humid cage for a week, then took her to the vet. He gave me premeasured Baytril in syringes. 4 hours after her first shot she was seizing and corkscrewing and had no muscle control. I called the vet and was advised to give the second dose the next day anyway. I did and 3 hours later she was dead. Whether this was from the drug or the RI had gone septic I will never know. I also had a boa with kidney disease that was given Baytril. He did not make it either but I doubt that had anything to do with the Baytril and more to do with kidney failure.

My current vet, who is the most awesome vet ever and very very knowledgeable on snakes, seems to love Amikacin, as long as soaks are given to keep hydration up.

But I have a male GTP who came to me with a throat abscess from swallowed teeth and despite multiple courses of amikacin has not been right in the year that I've had him. Every time I take him off treatment, he is bubbling and popping 2-3 weeks later, despite a warm cage and proper humidity conditions. I have 4 other arboreals and have never had a problem with any of them, so I know the conditions are not inadequate. I am just concerned with continuing on/off treatment and considering other antibiotics to ask for should he succumb again. He eats well, is active and alert and very tame. He's one of my favorite snakes and I've broken the bank on the repeated vet visits, but he's worth it to me.

One of the antibiotics I've heard good things about from other keepers is Fortaz. I've never used it, but was wondering what others' thoughts are on it. Also any other antibiotics you've used and outcomes. Hopefully this thread will help not only me but newbies who are facing their first snake sickness and wondering what to do about it.

shaunyboy · 07-15-10, 10:01 AM

a lot to read and think about willow so i'll get back to you with a better post.

got as far as your baytril

i was quite taken aback by the fact they gave you it in injectable form.

i have always used oral baytril with 100% success rate.it even brought a jungle/jag sib i rescued back from severe pneumonia.i swear by it as a broad spectrum antibiotic.dont know if your vet may have got the dillution incorrect and why she went for injections.imo much more invasive and stressfull to the snake.this is all just my own personal experiences with it.

the corkscrewing sounds like the injections affected your snake neurologically.imo too much of a coincidence it started right after the injections.

good post pal

cheers shaun

shaunyboy · 07-15-10, 10:12 AM

can your vet not takes swabs from the abcess then treat the bacteria found with that type bacteria's specific antibiotic.

my jags the same willow as re reoccuring problems,we even got key hole surgery done.all swabs come back bacteria free.somethings irrating his lung and causing small droplets of mucas to form.after watching the keyhole surgery on my vets computer you can see a nice healthy pink lung.apart from these tiny droplets he's in perfect condition eating and piling on wieght.its so frustrating as i thought the swabs would give us a specific type of bacteria we could treat with a specific antibiotic.

im finding it easier to break down your post and comment on what i can seperatley.
cheers shaun

Nafun · 07-15-10, 10:51 AM

I've gotten anti biotics for my snakes from the vet three times. Every time was Baytril in single use syringes.

shaunyboy · 07-15-10, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nafun

I've gotten anti biotics for my snakes from the vet three times. Every time was Baytril in single use syringes.

its oral baytril i use.you just tube the snake and flush it in.i use food to flush as it helps buils the snake up at the same time (if its been off its food).its a high nourishment cat/dog food the vet sells to get animals back to health after illness.you just water it down until it goes through the syringe barrel.
cheers shaun

citysnakes · 07-15-10, 11:15 PM

Kim, you need to have the vet perform a bacterial culture to determine which antibiotic the invading bacteria are sensitive to. sure, in many cases, selecting a popular antibiotic without testing the animal has success but if these popular drugs fail to work and you later decide on a different course of treatment without any testing then its just another guessing game at best.

as for Fortaz, i have only heard good things about it and in his book, Maxwell outlines a dosing regimen for an Amikacin/Fortaz combo. im sure you have the more complete chondro so check it out.

Will0W783 · 07-16-10, 08:44 AM

Thanks Julian. Yes I do have the More Complete Chondro. This is just baffling me and really getting me upset. I get so attached to all my snakes, so when one is sick it's hard. Archimedes ate with gusto last night and is alert and happy-looking so far. As soon as my vet gets back from vacation though, he's going to go in for a check-up and sensitivity test.

shaunyboy · 07-16-10, 10:32 AM

julien,have you any ideas on my jag mate ?

he's the only snake i have that gets re occuring r.i.'s.slight whistle when he breathes but you really have to listen for it.a small amount of froth in his mouth.then it turns into him sneezing or more like blowing all the air out his lung to clear the mucas.does this roughly 3 to 5 times per day.to start with.he was sneezing and throwing a lot of mucas out in the proccess.4 week course of baytril cured it for roughly 3 months.it came back a longer course of baytril failed to cure it.so we put him on some kind of human antibiotic injections.they didnt touch it and he got steadly worse.put him back on a 12 week course of baytril tube fed him to get him up to normal wieght.half way to normal wieght he started eating again.keyhole surgery showed a nice healthy pink lung.only problem was very tiny droplets of mucas in his lung.swabbed his lung and all tests came back bacteria free.put him on a nebuliser with f10 in it.vet reckoned that would clear up the last of it as he was hardly producing any mucas by this time.

present day
the nebuliser filled with f10 is stopping it getting any worse but its not getting any better either.all swabs of the lung came back bacteria free.vet reckons somethings irratating his lung and causing the mucas to form.ive took everything out his viv,using newspaper as substrate,metal dog bowl for his water.at first when i put him on baytril it used to clear it up completely for up to 5 to 10 weeks. now it just drys the mucas up a bit.it does take it away completely.i figured the bacteria was getting immune to the baytril but all swabs came back bacteria free.got another vets appiontment for the 20th as my vet says there a couple of more things we can try.the jags eating well and putting on wieght.its so frustrating.any suggestions would be most welcome folks.
cheers shaun

**Aaron_S** · 07-16-10, 03:07 PM

There are two kinds of R.I. Bacterial and viral. If it's bacterial it's an easy fix for the most part. If it's viral it's much harder to deal with. I'm not entirely up on all of it but usually re-occuring RI's mean it's viral.

Also, on the side of antibiotics. I have never used them. I don't buy wild caught animals ever so I never need to.

shaunyboy · 07-17-10, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

There are two kinds of R.I. Bacterial and viral. If it's bacterial it's an easy fix for the most part. If it's viral it's much harder to deal with. I'm not entirely up on all of it but usually re-occuring RI's mean it's viral.

Also, on the side of antibiotics. I have never used them. I don't buy wild caught animals ever so I never need to.

i dont see the relevance of not buying wild caught mate ?

captive bred snakes can suffer from infections the same as wildcaught.

one example being a bad r.i. when it develops into pneumonia antibiotic are required.

not having a go just didnt understand why you would think antibiotic use is only associated with wild caught.plenty of reasons to use them on captive bred.just my humble opinion.
cheers shaun

shaunyboy · 07-17-10, 07:35 AM

re viral.we can pretty much rule out viral imo i only have one room free to use as my quarintine room/medical room.there have been 3 snakes in said room for the last 5 months.only the jag has this reoccuring r.i. im figuring if it was viral all three would have symptoms by now.i quarintine all my new snakes for 6 months (they are all captive bred). as said any suggestions would be most welcome as would pointing out any flaws in my logic.

thanks in advance

cheers shaun

Will0W783 · 07-17-10, 12:29 PM

The GTP in question is a captive bred, 7-year-old male. I am his third owner. I am starting to worry about viral myself, but it clears up every time he's on antibiotics- just comes back as soon as I stop treatment. And each time he's on the medicine, it's been for at least a month and the vet has cleared me to stop treatment each time. I simply can't see putting him back on again though, since the amikacin is damaging to his kidneys.
I do have a few LTC and 2 WC snakes, but I mostly deal with CBB as well. Any more, I refuse to buy anything not CBB, unless it's something that you just don't often find CBB. The only wild-caught snakes I own are my file snakes, Mehelya poensis, as there is only one person in the US who breeds them and it's next to impossible to get babies. I immediately treated them with Panacure and quarantine for 3 months, and I've gotten them taking f/t rat pups scented on a frog. They are both doing well for me, so far. But it's really always a gamble with wild-caught and it's hard on the snakes. Just much easier and safer to do CBB.

**Aaron_S** · 07-17-10, 01:20 PM

Sorry Shaun I didn't mean for my words to come across like that. I do know that sometimes CBB animals still need antibiotics. It's just usually a lot less often.

Kimberly, it would seem that the reason it "clears" up when he's on antibiotics is because it's only treating the symptoms. The actual infection is still present, somewhere. As already suggested, I would recommend getting a culture done.

Will0W783 · 07-17-10, 02:02 PM

Thanks Aaron, I fully intend to get a culture done as soon as my vet gets back from vacation. I too, am afraid that it may be viral in nature and then I don't know what we will do. I should never have purchased a chondro from a little-known guy. Considering what I've spent on vet bills already, I could have had a Greg Maxwell chondro....sometimes a good deal turns out not to be. But I don't regret having Archie- he's such a sweetheart and a very handsome fellow as well. I just wish he'd get well...I'm so afraid I will end up losing him in the end. He's eating, but has lost a bit of weight over the year, due to going off feed when his symptoms get bad.

shaunyboy · 07-18-10, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Sorry Shaun I didn't mean for my words to come across like that. I do know that sometimes CBB animals still need antibiotics. It's just usually a lot less often.

Kimberly, it would seem that the reason it "clears" up when he's on antibiotics is because it's only treating the symptoms. The actual infection is still present, somewhere. As already suggested, I would recommend getting a culture done.

thats a great point mate.id completely forgot my vet explaining that to me.when mines kept re occuring he was thinking the r.i. was the secondary symptoms of something else.he thought it may be an abcess on his lung and we were treating the r.i as a normal r.i.when there was something that was causing the r.i as a second set of symptoms.the first set being an abcess full of infection.in my case turns out his lung was in perfect condition apart from the tiny bacteria free droplets of mucas present in the lung.

my bad mate i didnt put enough thought into your post.wild caughts do usually require a lot more treating than captive breds.due to all the crap their exposed to in the wild.
cheers shaun