super ball

pythonlover123 · 08-24-09, 03:56 PM

I've been breeding pythons for some time now but have recently been getting interested in breeding morphs. My question is when im breeding to produce super balls is there anything special i have to do and does it matter what sex my blood is.

Will0W783 · 08-25-09, 07:46 AM

Most people breed the male BP to a female blood because the blood pythons tend to have larger clutches. Ball pythons, from what I understand, have notoriously small clutches of eggs. I have not bred my two BPs together because it wouldn't be worth the stress to them- I have a normal male and a 50% het albino female; they would produce 25% het albino babies, not worth anything more than normals really. I have a nice pair of true blood pythons and intend to produce super balls as well, as soon as the bloods are up to size. I don't think you have to do anything other than cycle the temperatures as you would for any python/boa breeding and put them together, but if anyone has experience and knows otherwise, I'd also like to learn.

**Aaron_S** · 08-25-09, 04:25 PM

Why do you both intend to make hybrids? Most people in the hobby frown upon such things. Especially since it's not a 'natural intergrade'. Super balls are NOT morphs of either species just to be clear. It's a hybrid. Selling them as "new morphs" will only hurt the hobby.

Also, hybrids tend to be very difficult to create. With getting fertile clutches and then hatching them.

siz · 08-25-09, 06:47 PM

I am 100% with Aaron on this one...I am not a fan of hybridization at ALL. One of the main reasons is because if the hybrid gets crossed back into the bloodlines of, say, a pure blood, and then the offspring get bred with pure bloods, and so on, you soon won't be able to tell that ou have a partial hybrid and it endangers the pure species. I am by no means a 'pursit' but I do think we, as educated members of the herping community, have a responsibility to not muddy up the gene pools of the animals we love. Many people are responsible breeders but many are not, and who knows who will buy your snake in future? Who knows what they will decide to do with it? I'm not trying to change your opinion but I am asking you to rethink hybridization. How does it benefit your animals? (Not a sarcastic question, by the way)

Smilts · 08-25-09, 07:38 PM

While Im against Hybrids in general terms I feel like it wont matter they are becoming more and more common. Its wierd to me to see it there still so much to be done morph wise without crossing species....

siz · 08-25-09, 10:53 PM

No disrespect to you, Coy, but I feel that it does matter. I think that a lot of people (the majority, not every person) just do it because they "can" or because it will "look cool" and I feel that responsible ANIMAL ownership (not just herps) is about more than that. Often hybrids are infertile or malformed...what does that tell you? I find it hard to believe that is normal and I am not personally comfortable with the idea of hybridzation. This is more than even a ciliatus X chahoua (both two species of Rhac, which I am also not comfortable with). I'm not trying to make this into a big thing and don't get me wrong, some hybrids do look pretty cool but take the ball python for example. I don't think we have even come close to the potential this species has morph-wise, what is the need to cross it to a blood or a burm? It aleady has incredible potential by itself!
Also as I mentioned before, some people don't have the integrity to honestly say they have a 50/50 blood ball, or a 25/75 blood ball..etc.. I don't want to see hybrids popping up everywhere like with corns..there are some corn 'morphs' which are actually hybrids, yes? Sometimes, especially to the inexperienced, you don't even know what you are actually getting!
Just some thoughts...lol

Smilts · 08-25-09, 10:58 PM

cant disrespect me

what i meant was it wont in the end matter a hell of alot what we believe.... People will do as they please, I dont think its a good idea but people are going to do it anyway...

Will0W783 · 08-26-09, 08:01 AM

I didn't realize this was such a hot topic. I am responsible with all my animals and will think about it. I don't think, however, that a hybrid python is such a bad thing. Bloodballs, super balls, and carpondros are really beautiful, and although they might not be "natural", how is it really all that different from what people have done with dog and cat breeds? What about bengals and savannah cats? Bengals are DSH x asian leopard cat, and savannah cats are DSH x serval. I don't see many people frowning upon those. I personally own 3 bengals and they are by far the best cats I've ever owned, intelligent, regal, and unusually affectionate. I understand the difficulties with hybridization, and don't intend to try it until I have bred several seasons' worth of healthy, non-hybrid clutches. I don't want to anger anyone or get anyone's dander up, I am just curious if anyone on this forum has tried it, and if so, has any information.

Will0W783 · 08-26-09, 08:06 AM

I do hope pythonlver123 understands that the super ball is not a morph, but a hybrid. I fully do. Super ball = ball python x short-tail python. Bloodball = ball python x true blood python. Wall = woma python x ball python. Carpondro = carpet python x green tree python. It seems there are certain species that can and cannot be hybridized together. For example, I've never heard of anyone doing a GTP x ball- they seem to be too unrelated. However, there are a good number of breeders doing carpondros, which are both Morelia species. I found really good stuff on F1 and F2 super balls from Roussis Reptiles. For me, the thing is that if you do hybridize, you need to be responsible about it, and try to maintain genetic integrity; you need to be selective who you sell hybrids to, and maintain good records on them all, so that you don't end up with murky bloodlines somewhere down the line. I don't find anything wrong with hybridization, what I have a problem with is inbreeding and irresponsible breeding, whether it be of hybrids or not.

siz · 08-26-09, 08:38 AM

This is a bit off topic but I just want to point out the dog breeds are not hybrids. All dogs are canis familiaris and breeds are like 'morphs' so to speak. I don't know enough about bengal cats to even comment on them, so I won't.

Quote:

what I have a problem with is inbreeding and irresponsible breeding, whether it be of hybrids or not.

I suppose this is the bottom line, really. If you can't be a responsible breeder you really shouldn't be breeding at all, but especially hybrids.

When I first got into geckos, I saw a crested X chahoua. I thought it looked pretty cool, and I thought "hey, I could do that if I ever get a chahoua!" Well, now I have one, and I have some beautiful cresteds I COULD breed him with but I am so in love with the Rhacodactylus chahoua I wouldn't want to touch that with a 10ft pole. I think the two species are wonderful on their own and hybridization of the two seems unnecessary to me. That was a specific example but it does blanket what I am getting at...these animals are already so incredible (whether or not they have morph capabilities), why mess with that? Green tree pythons and carpet pythons are both gooorrrrgeous, I personally don't think carpondos do either species any justice. I personally can't think of one hybrid that does do either species any justice. Just my opinion. I'm not going to crucify someone who can responsibly do it...but in my eyes it is a super fine line.

Will0W783 · 08-26-09, 08:51 AM

I just looked up the crested x chahoua cross, and it is neat, but IMO not as cool as plain cresteds. I love cresteds, sooo cute. I can promise you and everyone else here that IF I ever do hybridize anything, I will research first and be responsible about it. I won't just go playing mad scientist with them; they are living, feeling creatures and I wont' take that for granted.

**Aaron_S** · 08-26-09, 02:40 PM

When it comes to reptile hybrids one issue that isn't the same with the like of a mule or other hybrids is that they ARE fertile! It WILL muddle up genes. The carpondro is slightly different as it gets uglier with age and anyone with a bit of knowledge KNOWS it's a hybrid. It's a problem when they start getting bred back to each original species.

Also we can hit on the topic of hybridization of "natural Intergrades" which means that the species themselves will "hybridize" in the wild. Such is the way with the guyana and surinam boas. The snakes don't know of any borders between the countries so they do mingle. I still prefer to keep lines seperate since eventually we'll be left with nothing but what we have in capativity. Just remember that, when a country closes it's borders we're then stuck with whatever muddled up gene pool we have.

citysnakes · 08-26-09, 10:31 PM

i really dont see the difference between whether one is breeding mutations or hybrids. breeding reptiles for both these reasons is primarily for physical appearance and irresponsible breeders or keepers may misrepresent animals either way.

the arguments made against breeding hybrids can also be applied to breeding mutations so its all a matter of opinion. for example mutations continue to be heavily inbred and mutations that have known defects continue to be bred and crossed. some may view this as irresponsible but because its breeding within the species most would argue that its not.

anyways im not for or against hybrids but i gotta admit that there are some pretty cool ones out there.