Another hospital incompetence story

[SCReptiles]

A friend called me last night and told me he had been envenomiated. I was already on the road, so I went over to his apartment to access the damage. He had took a bite on the middle knuckle of the left index figure. I marked off the bite, then marked and timed the pain and swelling line. When the swelling made it to the wriest, he decided he wanted to go to the ER. I took him to Memorial in Chattanooga, TN, which is where I go with mine. Up until last night, I had always been impressed with this operation. The ER was backed up and they took probably a half hour to triage. Since this was a minimal envenomation I didn’t say too much. Had we been there with a cobra or EDB bite, I would have kicked the door in and carried him to the back. So, after a half hour or so wait, they took him in and got his story and insurance info. The attendant tells him to go back out and wait, they will get to him asap. She then says, “Dr Champion says not to worry copperhead bites are not fatal.” The Dr made this diagnosis without even looking at him. For all she knew, he could have been in the middle of an anaphylactic reaction. I asked the lady to inform Dr Champion that a perfectly healthy young man died from a copperhead bite last summer in LA.

If this had been a severe envenmation, the half hour they wasted before they talked to him could have been the difference in him losing his hand or even life and death. And the statement from Dr Champion should be grounds for a malpractice lawsuit.

[Lrptls]

thats really crappy, i dont understand ERs. i would figure some one being bitten by a venomous snake no matter what species would be rushed in and looked at right away because like you said, he could have had a terrible reaction and they could have been too late. i went to he ER years ago, not for a snake bite but i was extremly ill, i think i waited an hour maybe longer, they didnt take me in until i was puking. hospitals are great =\

hope your friend is ok as well, you hot keepers stay safe!

[Reticsrule]

i know if i was bitten by any venomous snake i would want treatment ASAP. don't people understand how toxic some of these animals are? they definately arent something to be messing around with. hospitals suck sometimes lol

[Serpens]

I hate ERs...although I think part of the problem, at least in MY area, is that they're horribly understaffed. But yeah, that sucks. I hope your friend is ok. And like lrptls said...you hot keepers stay safe!

Serpens

[psilocybe]

Originally Posted by SCReptiles

A friend called me last night and told me he had been envenomiated. I was already on the road, so I went over to his apartment to access the damage. He had took a bite on the middle knuckle of the left index figure. I marked off the bite, then marked and timed the pain and swelling line. When the swelling made it to the wriest, he decided he wanted to go to the ER. I took him to Memorial in Chattanooga, TN, which is where I go with mine. Up until last night, I had always been impressed with this operation. The ER was backed up and they took probably a half hour to triage. Since this was a minimal envenomation I didn’t say too much. Had we been there with a cobra or EDB bite, I would have kicked the door in and carried him to the back. So, after a half hour or so wait, they took him in and got his story and insurance info. The attendant tells him to go back out and wait, they will get to him asap. She then says, “Dr Champion says not to worry copperhead bites are not fatal.” The Dr made this diagnosis without even looking at him. For all she knew, he could have been in the middle of an anaphylactic reaction. I asked the lady to inform Dr Champion that a perfectly healthy young man died from a copperhead bite last summer in LA.

If this had been a severe envenmation, the half hour they wasted before they talked to him could have been the difference in him losing his hand or even life and death. And the statement from Dr Champion should be grounds for a malpractice lawsuit.

The purpose of this post is not to insult or belittle...I'll just get that out from the start.

I have to ask...was this bite due to freehandling (for any reason, including religious)? If not, then obviously the rest of my post doesn't pertain to this situation.

If so, while the doctors do have a responsibility in properly managing the patient, the patient deserves whatever he gets. I mean, what do you expect when you freehandle a venomous snake? If I take a gun, and shoot myself in the leg, and something happens in the hospital and I lose the use of my leg or whatever complication you want to apply to this hypothetical situation, do you think people would say "Gosh, those darn doctors screwed up helping that poor young man and his gunshot wound", or would they say "That dumbass, he shot himself in the leg, and he got what he deserved". I think it would be the latter.

We all know that most doctors in this country are ignorant in how to treat snakebite...if we choose to freehandle, we should by default be accepting of the consequences of doing so, no matter how severe. Blaming doctors for "medical mismanagement", even if it was the case, when blatantly irresponsible, and in my humble opinion, stupid, behavior caused the injury in the first place is looking for a scapegoat for one's own ignorance.

Again, if this is not what happened, then this post doesn't pertain to the subject at hand, obviously. I just have very little sympathy for people who knowingly engage in pointless, un-neccesary, and dangerous behavior, and then cry and blame someone else when the inevitable happens.

[Rikki]

Thats horrible doctors act like that when they are supposed to help people.

[SCReptiles]

Blaming doctors for "medical mismanagement", even if it was the case, when blatantly irresponsible, and in my humble opinion, stupid, behavior caused the injury in the first place is looking for a scapegoat for one's own ignorance.

I do mean this to be offensive because I think a statement this stupid deserves it. Personal behavior is the cause of almost every bodily injury. ER shouldn’t treat victims from motorcycle wrecks as they choose to ride. They should not treat drowning victims as they choose to swim. Hell man, by your logic they should not treat people from car crashes, as they chose to drive. He was not free handling, and even if he was….how he got injured is of no concern to the ER. They are a business. They did not open as a public service they are there to make money and they are liable for the actions who they choose to employ and an employ choosing to make a diagnose without seeing the patient needs to be replaced prior to causing such a lawsuit.

[psilocybe]

Originally Posted by SCReptiles

I do mean this to be offensive because I think a statement this stupid deserves it. Personal behavior is the cause of almost every bodily injury. ER shouldn’t treat victims from motorcycle wrecks as they choose to ride. They should not treat drowning victims as they choose to swim. Hell man, by your logic they should not treat people from car crashes, as they chose to drive. He was not free handling, and even if he was….how he got injured is of no concern to the ER. They are a business. They did not open as a public service they are there to make money and they are liable for the actions who they choose to employ and an employ choosing to make a diagnose without seeing the patient needs to be replaced prior to causing such a lawsuit.

I am assuming you do religously freehandle venomous serpents....you do, don't you? I'm sure I've seen you post that before. Might explain why you got so butthurt about individual accountability, that is, if you act like a moron, and get hurt, DON'T CRY ABOUT IT LATER!

I think you missed the context of my post. I'm sure you know that most doctors are COMPLETELY ignorant when it comes to venomous snakebite. Most have never seen one, much less treated it. I'm sure the logic that "a copperhead isn't deadly, don't worry" is much more common than you or I can even fathom.

I never said that a patient shouldn't be treated for "accidents" (I wouldn't consider being bitten while freehandling an accident, more of a guarentee) resulting from their own stupidity. What I said is, that if you choose to freehandle venomous snakes, you should be prepared to meet an incompetant ER staff as well, because chances are you will. Doctors are infinitely more competant in treating motorcycle accidents, gun shots, etc. Snakebite is either not covered in most medical schools, or summarized in a paragraph. I know...I have friends who are doctors, and some that are still in medical school.

Again, I'll use my previous example. If I shot myself in the leg whilst being a dumbass, then complained when something went wrong at the hospital, most people (including you) would probably say, "What a dumbass, he deserved what he got", not "Oh that poor young man". Freehandling venomous snakes is akin to playing around with a loaded gun, except the snake doesn't need you to pull a trigger for it to bite.

As for hospitals being there to make money, you are dreaming. ER docs in most areas are SEVERELY underpaid for the amount of hours and work they put it. Private practice is where doctors make money, not hospital emergency rooms. A lot of people cannot afford to pay their hospital bills, or take years and years and years to do it. Many hospitals run way over budget. This is why the charge so damn much money to the insurance companies and people that actually can pay their bills, to cover the people who can't. What planet do you live on?

Am I condoning the doctors actions? Hell no. He should have examined your friend before he opened his mouth. Would I expect something like that from your average ER doctor who's overworked, underpaid, and has about a bajillion other patients, not to mention paperwork to attend to, and to top it off, knows NOTHING about snakebite. You betcha. Something to keep in mind next time you freehandle.

And don't worry about offending me, lol, because I take very little creedence in what comes from the mouths of people who use, of all things, religion, as an excuse to get their kicks by freehandling venomous snakes. I'm certainly glad your friend has more sense than you.

[psilocybe]

Ah, here you go:

Originally Posted by SCReptiles

Thanks Brian. Since that other organization we belong to asked me to play down the whole free handling thing, I have not been talking much about it of posting any pics to raise your blood pressure. However, that is all about the change. I have been working on a paper on religious serpent handling for several months A pastor and I co-authored it and its just about ready to print. In it I make the claim venomous snakes can be picked up safely with proper technique rather then divine intervention. To substantiate my claims I took up all the southeastern venomous species. Soon you will get to see me free handling my 48” copperhead and my 68” diamondback. As well as a coral, cottonmouth, and timber rattler. I know you will be excited to see it. Ha ha ha ha ha

Here's another one:

Originally Posted by SCReptiles

I recently took a bite in the forearm from a 40” northern copper.

I wonder how that happened?

[SCReptiles]

Fool, what does my free handling have to do with this other guy getting bit?

[BWSmith]

While it is well documented that i have strong feelings agaisnt free handling, I do not think that is the issue at hand. And i honestly do not see what Chuck's handling tactics have to do with the medical management of someone else's envenomation.

[psilocybe]

Originally Posted by SCReptiles

Fool, what does my free handling have to do with this other guy getting bit?

Originally Posted by psilocybe

The purpose of this post is not to insult or belittle...I'll just get that out from the start.

I have to ask...was this bite due to freehandling (for any reason, including religious)? If not, then obviously the rest of my post doesn't pertain to this situation.

This is what I said in the beginning of my first post...You had to go get your panties in a twist because of my comments regarding freehandling in general, and that if you do things like that you deserve exactly what you get, much as a motorcycle rider on the highway without a helmet who takes a spill deserves whatever they get, so I responded directly regarding your behavior...yes, the thread went off topic. Your freehandling has nothing to do with your friend being bit, and I never said it did.

Originally Posted by SCReptiles

I do mean this to be offensive because I think a statement this stupid deserves it. Personal behavior is the cause of almost every bodily injury. ER shouldn’t treat victims from motorcycle wrecks as they choose to ride. They should not treat drowning victims as they choose to swim. Hell man, by your logic they should not treat people from car crashes, as they chose to drive. He was not free handling, and even if he was….how he got injured is of no concern to the ER. They are a business. They did not open as a public service they are there to make money and they are liable for the actions who they choose to employ and an employ choosing to make a diagnose without seeing the patient needs to be replaced prior to causing such a lawsuit.

I neglected to address the idiocy of your argument here...you are saying that normal, everyday activities such as driving and swimming are actually comparable to freehandling venomous snakes? There is a difference between the person who drowns while swimming (an accident, unless they were stupid, i.e. drunk, didn't know how to swim and jumped in anyway, etc.), and a person who carelessly handles dangerous animals and gets what's coming to him. Same thing with driving, it is a normal everyday behavior that is almost a neccessity to most people, freehandling isn't. Those activities, when done properly (like 99% of people do it), are pretty damn safe. Tell me how safe freehandling is. You are comparing apples and oranges, and your argument holds no validity.

Don't you got a diamondback to play with or something?

[psilocybe]

Originally Posted by psilocybe

Am I condoning the doctors actions? Hell no. He should have examined your friend before he opened his mouth.

I completely agreed with you on this...the bite was mismanaged. No questions, and no arguments there...

[psilocybe]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

While it is well documented that i have strong feelings agaisnt free handling, I do not think that is the issue at hand. And i honestly do not see what Chuck's handling tactics have to do with the medical management of someone else's envenomation.

You're right...my initial post was a question, "was the bite due to freehandling"...i added a caveat, "if not, this post doesn't pertain"...I never said anything about chuck personally in that first post, just my views on people crying about how incompetant doctors are when their incompentance in properly handling dangerous animals got them there in the first place. This obviously hit a tender spot with Chuck, and here we are

[SCReptiles]

I have been thru this debate so many times. I am part of a subculture of venomous keepers that believes in hands on herpticulture. You are part of a subculture of herpticulture that believes in keeping venomous snakes. Herpticulture in general is part of the animal keeping subculture. And animal keepers are subculture of the culture. You can make the case it’s unsafe for me to free hand venomous snakes and that I shouldn’t do it. But the herpticulture subculture can make the case, it’s not safe to keep venomous snakes, and you shouldn’t do it. General animal keepers can make the case keeping any snake is too dangerous and that no one should keep them. That framework being laid, you can make a case against me free handling that I can not counter, but the subculture above you can make just as strong of a case against you keeping venomous snakes. And the culture above that can make a case against keeping snakes. I already know what you will say, I keep them for the joy of it, the ascetics, and the beauty….blah blah blah. I can’t fully appreciate something I can not touch and I personally would not have an animal I was afraid to handle. Get on your soap box and preach against me all you want. Your main point will of course be, free handlers are too much of a risk and it may lead to keeping be outlawed. It a good strong point, however, a boa keeper has just as strong of a case for people keeping venomous leading to the total outlawing of snakes. If you look at the wording of the new bans, they are not just saying venomous, they are saying dangerous snakes and outlawing the large constrictors as well. So, you are right, I shouldn’t do it. But the boa keepers that say you shouldn’t keep are right also. Luckily, we live in a country where we have rights, and I have just as much right to take the risk of free handling as you have the right to keep. And if I am hurt free handling, I have just as much right to medical care as you do if you are envenomatied while bagging a snake with a hook. I took excess risk in my hobby, just as you did in yours. And if you really think hospitals are not opened for profit, then you have no concept of reality and debating you is an exercise in futility.