cooling boids - more than 1 way ???

wyz · 11-11-04, 11:35 AM

Got a question for breeders who like to test things and might have tried that before.

Lets say that you wanna cool a pair a Brazilian Rainbow Boa in order to bred them.

It is suggested to cool them with night time temps of 68-72F (20-22C) and kept day time temps at 81F (27C).

What if you provide them with a big enough enclosure that as low temps at one end of the cage and high temps a the other end ?
(we'll make the assumption that the enclosure is big enough and setup so that we can obtain this huge temperature gradient)

Do you think the snakes will get the right temperatures by themselves without the breeder having to force them ?

Think they know at what temp to go in order to get their body prepared for breeding ?

WYZ

Invictus · 11-11-04, 12:14 PM

I can't comment for rainbow boas, but my Surinames are breeding right now, and all I did was reduce their day cycle. Their temps are the same - 88 or so during the day (basking) down to room temp at night. But, I started only giving them 8 hours of day cycle, and they started breeding right away.

wyz · 11-11-04, 05:14 PM

Hum, well getting them to breed is one thing..
But some species i.e. White lip pythons need a certain temperature to create good sperm and ova.

So they can copulate, but I'll end up with unfertile eggs.

This was one of the reason I was asking this question... I'd like to create a large gradient in order to have fertile eggs even if I don't know the EXACT temp. they need. Hoping they'll go where they're suppose to.

The other reason for my question was to save time... my BRBs have a setup that actualy gives them the DTH and NTL needed for breeding, so I was wonderng if they would use the right temperatures at the right time or if I really need to put them in other enclosure and force the temp. changes on them.

WYZ

Tim_Cranwill · 11-11-04, 05:30 PM

Why leave it to chance? I would just "force" the temps/conditions on them.

Jeff_Favelle · 11-11-04, 05:38 PM

And 81F isn't the proper day-time temp for Rainbows anways.

wyz · 11-11-04, 05:41 PM

90% chances are I will not chance it.

But, I'd like to see if anybody ever tried it (with or without success).

For sure I wouldn't like to waste a litter... If I had 10 females it would be another story, but it's not the case.

But some people on this site do have collection permiting such testing...

So the curious guy is asking.

WYZ

Jeff_Favelle · 11-11-04, 06:00 PM

I've got 12 female to go for this season and I ain't trying it, if that's what you're asking, LOL!!

wyz · 11-12-04, 10:39 AM

You know guys, I was gonna shut up and leave it at that since you are all 3 members that I respect.

But I really gotta say something.

Do you want this forum to simply be a place where people ask you about what substate to use, to debate on hybrids, to ask you the "cookbook way" to breed leos, to post pictures and have everybody say "ouh, nice snake" ???

I was trying to increase the "scientific" level just a bit...

In 3 replies, none of you answered my question...

Not all posts need to get replies you know. If you don't have the answer, go to the next thread.

I'm asking a serious question hoping experienced breeders will answer me... if none do... it's ok.

Sure I wanna breed animal, but I also want to learn other stuff while doing it. Cookbook recipes are great, but I also wanna know "WHY ? " and if there are other ways to do it.

So why, tell me not to chance it... ? I'm not that stupid, but why not try to learn stuff ?

Don't tell me 81 isn't the right temperature if you don't end your message with what is the right temperature.

Is this forum becoming that dull ?

WYZ

Tim_Cranwill · 11-12-04, 11:31 AM

But the thing is, in nature they aren't given a choice. It just GETS cooler at night during that time of year. So why would they <b>choose</b> cooler temps? I just don't think they consciously know that cooler temps mean it's getting time to breed. I think the cooler temps trigger a hormonal response and there's not much choice or thought involved at all.... JMHO.

By all means, try it out and see if it works though. My guess would be that you would get little to no success... but that's just MY guess.

And about the answering questions thing, you can't really blame us for that. You posted a question. I've seen other forums where there aren't any "experts" (not that I consider myself an "expert" by a LONG shot) around to answer some of the easier questions and people just end up getting BAD info like "I heard my cousin's friend used to do it like this" or just plain dangerous advice. I would prefer to get answers myself.

Now I know this question doesn’t really fall under that category of needing a "right" answer but you see what I’m saying? And besides, nothing was taken away from you by our answers. You still have your opinion/idea/theory. Run with it and try it out.

Tim_Cranwill · 11-12-04, 11:32 AM

Double post...

rwg · 11-12-04, 12:00 PM

I agree with Tim. It's speculation on my part, but I dont think they seek out cooler temps to prepare for breeding. I think when cooler temps are thrust apon them, their bodies react to it by preparing for breeding. If you cant afford a litter for experimentation, I'd go with tried and true methods, although I'd be interested in your results if you do try the experiment.

rg

Brent Strande · 11-12-04, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wyz
So they can copulate, but I'll end up with unfertile eggs.

This was one of the reason I was asking this question... I'd like to create a large gradient in order to have fertile eggs even if I don't know the EXACT temp. they need. Hoping they'll go where they're suppose to.

Most of the methods out there have been tested and revamped in order to get to a 'cookbook' simplicity.

Proper research will tell you that they need tems around 85F during the day... and also that they do not lay eggs.

I really don't see where you are justified attacking the answers of those who gave you a headstart on research for this topic?

Good luck, there's a thread somewhere in the archives started by Jdouglas and contributed to often by Jeff Favelle. There's alot of GREAT info in that thread. It's in the Epicrates section, I'd recommend checking iti out!

rwg · 11-12-04, 03:03 PM

Quote:

[i]Proper research will tell you that they need tems around 85F during the day... and also that they do not lay eggs.
[/B]

I thought the egg thing was part of his white-lipped python hypothetical. I'm pretty sure they do lay eggs. Even BRBs HAVE eggs even though they dont lay them, so egg fertility is still a valid concern. I agree with the rest of what you said though.

Roy

wyz · 11-12-04, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brent Strande
Most of the methods out there have been tested and revamped in order to get to a 'cookbook' simplicity.

True ! I didn't say it wasn't the case
I'm not putting any negative feedback on these info, they are great, but can't we "experiment" if we want to ? I sure hope I can withoyut anybodys aprouval.
I'm not asking you to follow my ideas, I'm asking if someone did it differently in tha past.

Quote:

Originally posted by Brent Strande
Proper research will tell you that they need tems around 85F during the day... and also that they do not lay eggs.

I was talking about White lip pythons...

Quote:

Originally posted by Brent Strande
I really don't see where you are justified attacking the answers of those who gave you a headstart on research for this topic?

I didn't get any answers, that's what I was complaining about.
And I think these guys can defend themselves if they feel to do so, they don't need you to do it for them.

I'm reading my post and I don't see any attacks, if you see one maybe you're the kind of person that can't take comments the right way.

I don't think Jeff, Tim or Ken lost their apetite over my few lines...

Quote:

Originally posted by Brent Strande
There's a thread somewhere in the archives started by Jdouglas and contributed to often by Jeff Favelle. There's alot of GREAT info in that thread. It's in the Epicrates section, I'd recommend checking iti out!

I've printed this entire thread allready, it contains wonderfull information that I'll probably follow in the coming days.

But I wasn't asking how to breed BRBs, if you read my question I was asking if there is another way.

Quote:

Originally posted by Brent Strande
Good luck

Thanks ! I'll need it ! It's my fisrt year attempting to breed boids..

WYZ

wyz · 11-12-04, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
But the thing is, in nature they aren't given a choice. It just GETS cooler at night during that time of year. So why would they <b>choose</b> cooler temps? I just don't think they consciously know that cooler temps mean it's getting time to breed. I think the cooler temps trigger a hormonal response and there's not much choice or thought involved at all.... JMHO.

You've resumed exactly what I'm asking myself.

Too bad our backyard is not Australia, New Guinea or Brazil

. It would be a great way to know.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
By all means, try it out and see if it works though. My guess would be that you would get little to no success... but that's just MY guess.

Maybe next year !

I'll have more "ready to breed" trios in 2005, so I can try a different way with each female.

This year just getting them to breed wil be more than enough for me.

WYZ