Fox Snakes???

[CamHanna]

What are the laws on keeping native reptiles in Ontario? Can I keep eastern foxsnakes from American stock? Can I keep western fox snakes?

Also I have read that in the wild easterns feed primarly on voles, are there problems getting them on rats in captivity?
Thank You
Cam Hanna

[Jayson]

You can not keep eastern fox snakes in ontario reguardless of where they originated from. You can keep westerns if you can visually identify them as western.

Jeff Hawthaway will be able to give you a much better understanding of the rules and regulation concerning ontario herps in captivity then anyone else i know, as he has been involved with native herps and the mnr for a long time.

[Removed_2815]

Eastern Fox Snakes are a Species At Risk in Ontario, they are listed as threatened under SARA and COSEWIC. Thus, they are very much illegal to keep in Ontario. You might be able to keep Westerns but discriminating between the two races is sometimes tricky.
Click Here
Cheers,
Ryan

[CamHanna]

Thanks, I knew I couldn't keep Canadian animals but I looked around a bit and couldn't find any legislation against keeping American stock, unless I wasn't interpreting properly.

Ryan, my field guide (Tennant, 2003) says that vulpina has more dorsal blotches than gloydi (though both snakes can have between 32-43 blotches). As well, gloydi has a copper head whereas vulpina can be any number of colours from yellow to copper/orange. Do you know of any other characteristics to decipher the two? Are ventral scale counts any good? I took a look around with google but didn't pull up anything helpful.

Thank You
Cam Hanna

PS - What is the red salamander in your avatar?

[thunder]

as for the vole question, i have kept easterns in the past (but not westerns) and i did not have much difficulty getting them to eat domesticated rodents. only one of my wild caught adults required scenting to switch over.

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by CamHanna
Thanks, I knew I couldn't keep Canadian animals but I looked around a bit and couldn't find any legislation against keeping American stock, unless I wasn't interpreting properly.

Basically, unless I am very much mistaken, you cannot keep Eastern Fox Snakes in Ontario regardless of where it came from. Since the authorities have no interest in following your paper trail, it is more effective to restrict the keeping of this species altogether. There's no way to ensure the animal wasn't taken from Ontario's wild - receipts and testimonies don't cut it.

Originally posted by CamHanna
Ryan, my field guide (Tennant, 2003) says that vulpina has more dorsal blotches than gloydi (though both snakes can have between 32-43 blotches). As well, gloydi has a copper head whereas vulpina can be any number of colours from yellow to copper/orange.

My field guide says the same thing, but there's overlap and phenotypic variation in all populations so it gets difficult to discriminate between subspecies - short of genetic analyses. I tend to rely on dorsal blotch count, but it's not always 100%.

And here's the Red Salamander:


Cheers,
Ryan

[CamHanna]

Thanks for all your help.

Definitely a great law, it does annoy me with melinistic garters though. I wonder, if I had a vulpina that they thought looked like a gloydi, would I be allowed to try to prove it as vulpina before they confiscated it.

How extreme are the 'phenotypic variations between populations'? Last summer I caught some garters, in a drained bog near my house, that small heads, higher lateral lines and lower ventral scale counts. I sent away pics to some butleri guys and they all agreed that they like butleri. This was especially nice because I live in Perth county, right in the middle of the known populations. DNA, however, showed them to be sirtalis. Really, that has nothing to do with fox snakes but I felt like sharing.

That's a beautiful salamander.

Thanks again

Cam