Survivor - solo cal king - long post - lots of pics

[vanderkm]

I held out no hope for this breeding - we bred the female simply to prevent her from producing a clutch of slugs again this year - but they never managed to actually lock up during multiple breeding attempts so I expected another year of slugs

the pair


she laid 3 slugs May 20 and I could feel a lot more in her - figured she would pass them with time. On May 30 she laid 18 eggs - 6 typical yellow slugs, and the rest with weak looking shells but I put them in the incubator anyway.



Six candled as fertile but the rest appeared completely clear. Over the course of incubation mold set in quickly and I removed those that had candled clear, were now moldy and not attached to the cluster. I did not treat the mold - just let it go assuming it would only attack dead eggs. By the due date they looked like this


The five cleanest looking ones still showed vessels, the one with the arrow started to leak fluid by about day 55 but resealed. None ever dimpled like normal eggs near term. On July 31, the leaky egg pipped, one active little head.

I pipped the remainder the next day, despite the fact that the solo one had not come out of the egg yet. The two largest held normally formed, term babies that might have survived if I had pipped them earlier. There was one live baby, half the size of the rest, with brain external to skull that I euthanized immediately. The last egg - the shrunken, moldy one by the leaky one - held an underdeveloped hatchling that appeared to have been dead for a while.

The following day, this guy left his egg



I am left with lots of questions on this one - mostly wondering if the two full term appearing snakes might have lived if I had pipped earlier (loss of egg tooth or just too weak to pip themselves). And of course the question of whether I should have pipped them, or gone with the theory that if they are too weak to pip they should be left to die.

Other issue is whether these might have been weak or abnormal from being retained in the female long past when she started to lay - 10 days from first slugs deposited (about day 14 post shed) to when the fertile eggs were laid - does that make a difference - has anyone seen good clutches come so far after slugs?

At least it wasn't a complete failure - he is just a regular little cal king, but the only one we have ever hatched - so guess that makes him a keeper. His name is Griddle.

mary v.

[Katt]

Congrats on the lone survivor!! Sorry to hear about the rest of the eggs. I totally know how that feels. Funny how the least likely egg (a leaky one) actually yielded something!

Griddle is a cutie and I like his name!

[Vanan]

Sorry to hear about the other eggs but Griddle seems to look like he's making up for the loss.

Been noticing quite a number of full term DIA (Dead In Egg) babies. Corey had a batch of GTP's which just came out of the shell and then died. We had a number of our own full term DIA's.

It almost seems that normal, healthy hatchlings require that lil extra, either in their biochemistry/physiology or physical stucture, to survive past hatching (or even to hatch). I strongly suspect low calcium levels being the culprit. A female lays eggs (with no added calcium to her diet), ends up a tiny bit calcium deficient, lays thinner shelled eggs, growing fetus doesn't have adequate levels of calcium derived from shell to grow properly, may end up with a weak heart or something internal which is not up to par, and you end up with a full term DIA. This only a far fetched hypothesis. Many people may have bred species for generations without added calcium and have had no full term DIA's. The other flaw to this hypothesis would be that snakes in the wild don't have added calcium in their diets, but then again, there may be other factors involved. Possible UVB radiation, aiding in the production of Ca. Variety of prey may also result in varying levels of nutritional value.

Very interesting nonetheless. Seems that we've only just begun to scrape the surface of what we know about these wonderful beings.

[Will]

He looks fantastic Mary!

Looking at that pic of Day 55, I wouldn't have guessed anything would have hatched out of that egg.

Do you plan to try breeding her again next year to avoid slugs, or just take chances with slugs...?

[vanderkm]

Katt - thanks - amazing how attached we can get to a clutch of eggs and how disappointing it is when you see those perfect little guys in there and don't know what you could have done to help them make it.

Vanan - interesting theory - and I agree there is just so much we don't know - even with the more common species.

Will - he is a cutie isn't he - I don't plan to breed the female next year - don't really need more cal kings and will just take my chances with slugs. We have always heard and our past experience has been that slugs are worse. Katt mentioned having problems with fertile eggs and this year we have had two females have problems with retained fertile eggs, in mixed clutches with slugs also, so I don't really know what is worse. Just know that next year I really want to focus only on the breedings that I want to keep babies back from, so no breeding just to try and keep females from slugging out. I can never just throw out the eggs and would end up incubating them - will leave the cal kings to those who are focusing on them!

mary v.

[gonesnakee]

Survival of the fittest seems to be appropriate. Of the 3 eggs I pipped yesterday, one was dead not quite full term (as expected by the looks of the egg) & the other 2 were alive when pipped & dead today & both yielded messed up babies. I think mother nature lets their little egg teeth fall off prior exit on purpose sometimes as its been my experience lately that the eggs I've been pipping more often then not have dead or messed up babies that die right away (if not already dead) & would have never hatched anyway if not for my intervention. I also had some eggs with "nipples" that oozed stuff thoughout incubation (GBs), but had perfect little babies hatch out. I had thought of throwing them out a few times as they got mouldier & grosser, but was glad I didn't in the end. Ah to pip or not to pip eh? I haven't really told anyone yet but I had a Corn this year with a split open kinda head with 2 jaws & 4 eyeballs. It was an egg that I pipped, but it hatched on its own & was alive for 1/2 the day before I euthanized it. I can't beleive the thing hatched out alive & figured it would die right away. I'll send pics to ya Mary & to Katt/Vanan as I know you guys love this gross baby stuff (JK) Mark