Probing 'Glitch'

Will · 07-27-04, 10:59 AM

I probed the babies a couple weeks ago. I was re-probing some of the baby Cals last night, just to be sure, and came across kind of a problem with one of them:

I originally probed this one as female, however that was only on one side. I probed her last night and was surprised to get 'male'. I did the other side and came up with 'female'(probably the side I did the first time). Hmm, lol - This kind of threw me off...

Any idea what to do now...?

Stockwell · 07-27-04, 11:13 AM

You should be everting (popping) babies not probing them

Will · 07-27-04, 11:28 AM

They're just over a month old - I thought you couldn't do that beyond a couple of weeks old. And I've never popped, nor seen it done to a snake and don't want to risk seriously damaging them if I screw it up. And I've been told popping is not as reliable as probing - although now I see probing is not exactly infallible...

wyz · 07-27-04, 11:33 AM

If one side gives you female and the other side male, probably that the male side in a perforated female..

Pop it and you'll have a good idea if it's male.

Sure popping is not 100% sure, but it gives 100% sure males though.

WYZ

Stockwell · 07-27-04, 11:46 AM

Nonsense, I pop babies right after first shed up to adults. The older they get the more pressure and experience it requires but we're talking many months before it becomes difficult... Popping up to one year of age should be no problem for most.
It takes some technique, and is best taught by a breeder with a few years experience. The thumb must be rolled from the tip of the tail towards the cloaca. Providing you're right handed, this should be done with your right hand while you support the tail right under the cloaca with your left hand forming a V so the cloaca is open slightly. You can't do it with the tail straight because their will be no room for the hemipenes to come out.
Females will pop two little pink buttons which are the scent glands. Males will pop much longer bright red hemipenes.
Sometimes only one hemipene will pop but that is all you need to see.

Also if you have a clutch of snakes, learn to examine them closely from the cloaca back...Do comparisons, and get a couple buckets, and do it over and over visually... You'll be surprised how accurate you can get by visual sexing only. I feel herpers don't work hard enough at this, but sexing baby snakes, is part of the business and like anything else it takes lots of close observation and practice.
Males have noticeably longer tails that are thicker and taper more evenly than females short more abrupt tails...
In my opinion it's dangerous to be sticking steel probes into young snakes.
It's pretty easy to break through the soft tissue of the scent glands of females making them appear to be males

Will · 07-27-04, 11:59 AM

Thanks Roy, I'm gonna go try doing the visual method right now(I have the day off, and nothing else to do since it's raining outside - AGAIN

). I think I know the sexes of the rest of them, so I'll toss them all in a Rubbermaid and randomly look at them and see if I can get the hang of that - although I've only got 5 to work with.

I think I'll try to convince someone to show me how to pop before i try it myself - Any takers that'll be in Red Deer, lol...?

Tim_Cranwill · 07-27-04, 12:26 PM

I'll be in Red Deer. Stop by and I'll show you how to pop.

vanderkm · 07-27-04, 12:55 PM

I am working out of town this week, but would be happy to show you how to pop some day next week if you want to drop me a PM - my first corn clutch is also due to shed in about a week and I will be popping them after that, so lots to work with.

I find with cal kings there is a real difference in tail shape - and like Roy says, the more I look at them, the better I get at telling them just by looking. I find the corns harder than cal kings up to a year of age.

Really helps to work through a litter once someone else has done them too - you know which ones are which so you don't need to worry about doing any damage.

mary v.

Vanan · 07-27-04, 09:25 PM

I agree with Roy about ONLY popping babies, especially hatchlings! Way more safer and reliable if done right. I have popped babies right out of the egg with no problems, but then again, it takes practise.

As for the "half sided male syndrome", we have come across a good number of those who actually are true males (cos they've bred!). Seems like there might be a constriction of the muscles or a blockage due to sperm deposits (that cruddy stuff on adult males). I have also never got a male who only popped a single hemipene for me.

Popping can me harmful if done wrong, but it's also ALOT safer than probing if done right.

Stockwell · 07-27-04, 09:59 PM

Mary I just noticed something I have never noticed before with albino corns.
I have a whack of them too, and noticed last night the hemipenes in males can actually be seen right throught the skin, as "red regions" in the tail posterior to the cloaca. I don't know if I only noticed this now, because they are motleys with almost transparent ventrals, but it sure turned out to be 100% accurate.
With practice and if you have good eyes, you should also be able to sex corns visually. Pull the tail out straight between your thumb and forefinger and look at the tail geometry. Males have a significantly longer, thicker tail that tapers evenly. Females have a shorter thinner tail with a more abrupt drop or dip from the cloaca to the tail.
Once again practice makes perfect.
One of the most recent eversions I've seen that impressed the heck out of me was Mr. Clint Gilders fulling popping an adult 5 foot Ball Python at one of last years shows. It was a double thumb pop, executed perfectly the first time... I felt like handing him a cigar!!

Tim_Cranwill · 07-27-04, 11:15 PM

I pop them right out of the egg too. It takes literally 2 seconds. If they are "females", I will pop them again after they shed just to make sure... and possibly one more time before I put them up for sale or sell them.

Roy, I was just seeing the same thing today with a snow corn. You can see the red 'penes through the almost clear skin... pretty cool. I have also tried "candling" the cloacal area to see if the same technique could apply to normals and other "non-see-through" snakes. They would have to be small enough that a sufficient amount of light could pass through their bodies. Kind of like holding your thumb over a flashlight in the dark... you can see EVERYTHING!

vanderkm · 07-28-04, 12:40 PM

Neat that you can see that so clearly Roy and Tim. I was going to try it with my corn clutch that just hatched - first albinos I have hatched, once they have shed. I have heard of doing it before, but have not had any to practice on. I think Kathy mentions it in her cornsnake book.

I agree on the visual sexing of corns and kings by tails, but I still find it really hard with hatchlings - will have more to practice on this year though - and practice always helps,

mary v.

Will · 07-28-04, 02:28 PM

Quote:

I agree on the visual sexing of corns and kings by tails, but I still find it really hard with hatchlings

I can do it alright on adults, but I find that with the hatchlings, the variation is proportionately smaller(if that makes sense), that I can't really tell one from the other yet. When I tried to do that yesterday, I may as well have been flipping a coin, lol.