Whacking/Live feeding/etc.

ChristinaM · 05-03-04, 08:05 AM

Ok, yes I'm aware these topics have been discussed many times. I have been browsing through previous posts for the lat hr/and a half. But I have yet to find a really really good post on the questions I have.

1. does anyone have a little video, or anything like thing of how to whack?

2. is there something wrong with feeding live young rats ( ie. pinkies or fuzzies )? I am aware of the dangers of feeding live older prey, I have seen the pics of snake damage done by prey. But a fuzzy or pinkie, I don't see how it could harm the snake.

Is it just an ethical choice, of the length of time the prey suffers, or can even small babies cause damage to the snake?

3. If one does feed live, and stays to make sure the snake kills, eats, etc. and the prey cannot damage the snake, is there still risks to the snake from feeding live?

Alot of this is stemming from, my momma rat just birthed her first litter last Thurs.

Last night was feeding night for 2 of my snakes.

I fed my corn 2 live pinkies. I stayed and watched. The first one died within a minute I would say. The second one did not. It took longer. I'm aware of the ethical issues, the humanity or lacktherof. Trust me, I did not feel good watching the second rat suffer.

I'm trying to ready myself for what to do as the rat pups age and need to be frozen, etc. I only have the one snake that eats pups. Everything else eats a minimum of 70g prey. So I will have to choose how to euthanise, or feed live/stunned, etc. There's an inner battle going on, and I'm hoping researching this will help.

I appreciate your time, and any links to specific discussions, etc. would be appreciated.

thanks.

M_surinamensis · 05-03-04, 08:18 AM

1) While it certainly wouldn't be a bad idea in one respect, since the point of prekilling prey is twofold and one of the issues is to make it quick and clean and that means knowing how to best go about it... Imagine such a video in the hands of an Animal Rights nutjob group, the fallout would be bad. Very very bad.

2) They can't physically harm the snake, although big fuzzies are kinda borderline... There's the ethical issue you raised but that's something everyone must decide for themselves... The only really negative aspect would be the tendency of certain species to be picky feeders and the fact that there is a possibility of the snake then refusing prekilled or F/T prey at a later time. Prekilling pinkies/fuzzies/rat pups isn't quite the same as prekilling subadult or adult rodents though, the tail isn't fully formed or particularly strong- trying the typical method would just result in removing the tail. Personally I've found that for those borderline rat pups that have just gotten their teeth and hopper mice, a quick pinch to the back of the skull where it joins the neck does the trick quickly and easily but there's a certain knack to it that makes it difficult to describe. Many people (including myself at times) will flick the tiny little guys with a fingernail, but sometimes this might take more than one try.

3) A minimal one of course, in that an adult rat can cause some pretty serious damage before you can remove it from the enclosure but supervised feeding of live prey isn't the criminal act that some people seem to believe it is. The danger is lessened because you'll risk getting bit yourself to remove the prey item if it begins to go poorly and the moral issue is, again, a personal thing.

daver676 · 05-03-04, 08:33 AM

I was just thinking about starting a similar thread since currently I'm feeding my ball live 150g rats, and I'd like to start the switch to f/t.

I'm armed with two things when I feed live. A rat dangling by the tail with one hand, and a set of tongs with the other. Lower the rat to the snake, snake takes rat, grab rats head with tongs until dead. It's working well so far, but I know it's just a matter of time. I'm thinking, since I don't think wacking is for me, of building a small CO2 (baking soda+vinegar) gas chamber.

Here are a few ideas for CO2 chambers:

CO2 Chamber using vinegar and baking soda.

Auskan · 05-03-04, 10:08 AM

The way I whack the younger pinkies & fuzzies that do not yet have well developed tails, is to put them in a little ziploc bag and whack that real hard against the corner of a table. It never requires a second whack and I don't have to worry about the tail coming off.

latazyo · 05-03-04, 10:48 AM

you can pinch a pinkie's head and destroy its brains instantly

Linds · 05-03-04, 12:55 PM

I always chuck em in a bag ans smash them off the concrete. I can't do it by the tail or I end up smashing my hand

I've also ended up snapping off a few tails before

Pinkies and small fuzzies I just pinch their skulls in forcing their brains back in to their bodies (have to get the angle right or it shoots out the nose). They have very thin skin and more often than not when I wack them they have split right open, but have still been alive

Wizwise2000 · 05-03-04, 06:33 PM

Wow!!! I've never smashed one so hard the tails snapped off LOL

I break the necks of younger rodents and whack most of the bigger ones by the tail off a desk or something. Whacking them is effective.

Shane

sapphire_moon · 05-03-04, 06:53 PM

when killing rats that has yet to open their eyes, I snap their necks. When killing rats that have a light fuzz to no fuzz, I flick the back of their heads, and break their necks.

Anything that has it's eyes open (if I have enough of them) I just gass them, if I don't have enough (under 20), I whack'em

annieb_mice · 05-04-04, 11:12 PM

1. does anyone have a little video, or anything like thing of how to whack?

*** Unfortunately, no.

2. is there something wrong with feeding live young rats ( ie. pinkies or fuzzies )? I am aware of the dangers of feeding live older prey, I have seen the pics of snake damage done by prey. But a fuzzy or pinkie, I don't see how it could harm the snake.

Is it just an ethical choice, of the length of time the prey suffers, or can even small babies cause damage to the snake?

*** For the most part, this is really just a personal choice. Larger fuzzies might be able to inflict minor damage, but I believe this is rare.

3. If one does feed live, and stays to make sure the snake kills, eats, etc. and the prey cannot damage the snake, is there still risks to the snake from feeding live?

*** Live feeding always involves risks. Not only from the rodents themselves, but also from the various parasites that might be on the rodents. Freezing kills all the parasites dead. When you feed live, you are risking the possibility of transferring a nasty parasite to your snake.
There is also the problem of the snake becoming a fussy eater when it is bigger. Feeding frozen/thawed from day one prevents this.

I fed my corn 2 live pinkies. I stayed and watched. The first one died within a minute I would say. The second one did not. It took longer. I'm aware of the ethical issues, the humanity or lacktherof. Trust me, I did not feel good watching the second rat suffer.

*** Unless you are a sadist, this is always hard to watch. I made that mistake once... and ONLY once, and from then on have fed F/T. I know it sounds stupid... after all, I kill mice and rats everyday and don't give it a second thought. But I don't like to see animals suffering, so I chose the quickest and most humane way ... CO2.

I'm trying to ready myself for what to do as the rat pups age and need to be frozen, etc. I only have the one snake that eats pups. Everything else eats a minimum of 70g prey. So I will have to choose how to euthanise, or feed live/stunned, etc. There's an inner battle going on, and I'm hoping researching this will help.

*** I'm glad to see someone actually taking the time to research! In the end... whatever you decide to do, whether live or F/T, is entirely up to you. Try to make your decision not on what OTHERS will tell you to do, but on what YOU can live with. Some people can deal with live feeding, some prefer frozen/thawed. Others chose to stun the rodent first.
However you decide to offer the prey item, remember to think of what consequences it could have on your snake and whether you can live with it.
Good Luck!
Annie B. <:3 )~~

jjnnbns · 05-04-04, 11:59 PM

Dry ice and water works well and is fairly inexpensive. Whacking young mice and rats definitely causes them to split and makes a big ol mess.

I've never heard the vinegar and baking soda thing before

M_surinamensis · 05-05-04, 12:59 AM

Justa couple things...

" Live feeding always involves risks. Not only from the rodents themselves, but also from the various parasites that might be on the rodents. Freezing kills all the parasites dead."

Is simply not true. It kills most parasites- not all. While it's certainly a great way to reduce the potential risk by an enormous amount, it is not a surefire way to kill off every parasite that a feeder rodent is capable of carrying. Especially when discussing the temperatures used to keep rodents fresh (Not too much lower than those in a home freezer for the initial freeze).

"There is also the problem of the snake becoming a fussy eater when it is bigger. Feeding frozen/thawed from day one prevents this."

Is also not universally true. Certain species will become picky feeders at the drop of a hat, regardless of what they may or may not have ever eaten before... while feeding a live animal can often interrupt a feeding routine and cause reluctance to accept prekilled, there are situations where snakes will, despite having taken exactly what you wanted to give them for years on end... suddenly decide they want nothing but frogs... or birds... or live rodents with a certain color fur.

Both of your statements are valid... to a point. It's just important not to phrase them as absolutes.

annieb_mice · 05-05-04, 01:57 AM

Sorry... you are right... I should have said ... It kills MOST of the possible parasites... LOL! I've only had one problem with mites... YEARS ago... and haven't had anything since. Which parasites can withstand the freezing temperatures?? I can't think of any so I'm curious.

Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

daver676 · 05-05-04, 06:45 AM

What type of parasite are we talking about here. Internal? External? Both? What types of parasites can be transfered from a rat to a snake? I've been told many times before that most types of parasites are host specific.

ChristinaM · 05-05-04, 07:32 AM

Thank you all very much

Annie, I appreciate your lengthy response, thanks for taking the time to write it.

On the parasite front, I breed my own rats, and know of the conditions they are kept, etc....they "shouldn't" have any parasites. Does that help my case, in the sense that there should be minimal risk of the live wee ones giving my snakes any parasites?

jim mcallister · 05-05-04, 07:44 AM

Are the snake mites host specific? I was always under the impression that snakes could not get mites from rodents? but from other snakes...