Request for S. Pine pics

Vanan · 04-14-04, 03:24 PM

My first introductions to Southerns was my patternless pair. After that, I've only seemed to have seen muddy looking Southerns. Up until recently, someone posted a pic of a beautiful Southern (which some misidentified as a Nothern). Just wondering if those of you with Southerns would be kind enough to display them here.

MouseKilla · 04-14-04, 04:52 PM

If you're referring to my post I still don't know whether he's a Northern, Southern or Florida pine... couldn't seem to get a lot of agreement.

I personally know just about jack about pines, the one I posted is the only one I've got (until I can find out what I have and can pair him up properly). I really like the menacing look they have and would like to breed them eventually.

If you think what I posted is a Southern pine and would like more pics I can probably swing that.

Vanan · 04-14-04, 05:15 PM

I definitely thought yours was a Southern at first look. I know Katt thought wrong though but she's still a bit behind on the pit ID-ing. She's just started her foray into pits.

P.S. Have you looked up scale counts?

MouseKilla · 04-14-04, 05:29 PM

Well Scotty Allen posted a link for some Florida pine info that metioned dorsal scale rows but I really don't know how to count those, they seem to kinda zig zag and I lose count. I don't have any info regarding any other scale counts or any info comparing scale counts from different pits. I'll be sure to save his next shed and get some numbers, hopefully I can solve this riddle.

Vanan · 04-14-04, 05:48 PM

Actually, upon further searches for pics, it seems that yours might even be an intergrade. The front half seems very much like a Southern, which is what tipped me off at first. The thing which you can't deny is, that the tail end has the coloration and pattern of the Notherns. Which is why I mentioned your's being a nice looking Southern as I liked Northerns meself.

I will double check with my own snakes (I have both ssp) and see if we can distinguish the both via scale count.

Scales Zoo · 04-14-04, 06:01 PM

Florida pines
http://www.kingsn*ke.com/pituophis/p_m_mugitus.html

Northern Pines
http://www.kingsn*ke.com/pituophis/p...anoleucus.html

replace the asterix with an "a"

Ryan

MouseKilla · 04-14-04, 06:15 PM

That would be great, like I said I can fire up the camera and try to get some better shots. He is EXTREMELY hard to photograph because of his size and speed (hard to get all of him in the frame, even harder to snap a picture in the nanosecond he isn't moving!).

It would be nice to get a better idea of what I'm dealing with, if he's an intergrade I guess I'm buggered when it comes to finding him a matching female. I'm not familliar with the differences in pattern among pits but I do know that all the Northerns I have seen have black whereas my mystery pit has none. Of course that may mean he's a "red phase" pine of some kind. I think your scale count suggestion may be the only way to make any sense out of this.

Out of curiousity what sort of substrate are you using for your various pit ssp.? This guy just seems to want to dig and burrow all the time (makes sense when he has a shovel shaped head I suppose). I got away from loose substrates with all my snakes about a year ago but he really seemed to like it when he had gravel and sand compared with all my other colubrids which don't seem to care one way or the other. I almost feel guilty watching this guy constantly shred up his newspaper.

Vanan · 04-14-04, 06:22 PM

I keep all my snakes on peat moss. The pits get it a lil deeper but it never seems enough for them.

P.S. I might have something on the difference. Dya have a good clear pic of his dorsal, from head to tail?

MouseKilla · 04-14-04, 06:28 PM

Going by the pics in the links Ryan posted (thanks Ryan!) my guy is a whole lot closer to the Southern or Florida (which I hadn't realized were the same). Let me see if I can sedate him or something and I'll try to get a good full length shot of him.

Scales Zoo · 04-14-04, 06:54 PM

No problem MouseKilla - it's my favorite Pit site, and if you look at the pictures section, there are a lot of nice pictures of many types of Pits.

Ryan

Vanan · 04-14-04, 06:56 PM

Hey! This thread has been hijacked! :P

crimsonking · 04-16-04, 09:52 PM

Okay these are bad pics of a FL. pine. Sorry he's in shed to add to the muddy look. Also photo'd through glass enclosure.

and a closer look at the difference in the anterior and posterior scale/pattern/ colors.

:Mark

crimsonking · 04-16-04, 10:00 PM

..is even worse, but shows most of the snake. It also shows a pretty close resemblance to the one in question I think. Anyway, it's a Florida animal as is the previous one.
:Mark

Vanan · 04-16-04, 10:34 PM

Aah now that's how I know southerns to be. Ugly and muddy snakes. lol! j/k!

I see what you mean by them having lighter blotches. That one's blotches seem red!

crimsonking · 04-16-04, 10:42 PM

Vanan, the first one's (and many others') blotches do turn rust colored as you near the tail. You're right-- many border on being ugly snakes. Some of the prettiest in my opinion, are rust on white with almost no other color at all and have pure white bellies. Those found in west central/southern FL. seem to be the most colorful.
:Mark