Regions

[HeatherRose]

This might sound like a COMPLETELY stupid question...but just know I'm merely *curious* and certainly not PLANNING anything

Can panther chameleons from different regions breed? Such as an ambaja to a nosy be?

What are the exact differences between the regional chameleons, anyway...

Thanks

[Collide]

The biggest difference between the different regions is color, size and shape can also be different but this si more of a small thing most people wouldent notice. You can breed two different species and have a hybread, but its not really practical, first off your creating "bad" blood not that the chameleon will be bad just not a real local, if u want to sell the babies they will not be as desiriable hence not as $, most crosses are known as rambow chameleons. And they can come out looking quite interesting. I guess its a choice on weither to keep the blood pure or not.

[HeatherRose]

Ah, thanks....
I've seen rainbow chameleons, very interesting...

I suppose people are looking for more specific bloodlines, not hybrids or mixed blood.

[panther_dude]

yes but you must also remember that some pet shops just use the name rainbow when the real name is not known. The terms rainbow is used primarly for ambanja panthers. My baby girl was labeled as a rainbow but after contacting the breeder i was told she was an ambanja.
Also when you are cross breeding yes it is bad blood, and because of this not too many of the neonates will survive. If they do it is almost garaunteed that they will be infertile and unable to produce younge.
Its best to keep the blood lines pure as people are having a fit already about the chameleons blood lines not being traceable.
Uness you are going to register them i would say to just keep the bloodlines pure.

[Chris_Anderson]

Hybridization of geographic localities is not a popular practice among most serious breeders. I recently helped create a bloodline tracking database (www.chameleondatabase.com) to help trace pure lineages and prevent inbreeding. While it is not true that locality hybrids are infertile, the future breeding value and monetary value of such hybrids is highly reduced. More importantly, there is the risk that these animals will be bred into pure blood unknowingly or accidentally or even purposely and those progeny represented as pure localities, thereby destroying the captive lines. If current attempts to stop export are realized, this could have disasterous effects to the captive population.

Chris

[kidchameleon]

ive seen cross-breeding between ambanja's and nosy be's, but i dont really know how healthy they are or if they are infertile, or is they have any other defects. i just know that its been done.

[kidchameleon]

oh , i have a question of my own. has anyone ever bred like, two completely different species? like a jackson and a panther? this sparked my interest the other day when my friend jokingly told me that i should try and breed my jackson and veiled haha.

[DragnDrop]

Not much chance of a jackson x veiled breeding. Jacksons are live bearers, veileds lay eggs.
I don't know about crossing different egg layers or live bearers, but I suppose someone somewhere has tried it with captives.

[choriona]

The definitioin of a species is the ability to produce viable offspring. As in the babies will be able to produce babies of their own eventually. Crossing between species is possible, but often difficult. Like when you cross a horse and a donkey, you get a sterile mule. The genetice between the species have to be fairly close in order for it to work.
Like dragondrop said, a live bearer and a egg layer are fer removed in genetics to produce a cross. A veiled comes from a completely different continent as the chams from madagascar, which means their genetics drifted many years ago.
But panthers are all the same species. They have evolved unique color morphs for their region due to selective and continued breeding to those around their localities. They are still able to interbreed and most likely produce viable offspring. But as has been mentioned before, some people think the bloodlines should remain pure.
On the other hand, one might argue that with increased breeding of a select few captive bred panthers of a certian locale may lead to decreased genetic fitness. Meaning that you may eventually end up with problems known too well with other pedigrees like dogs or cats.
I applaud those people wanting to preserve the species, but should we also try to preserve one point in time and try to recreated it again and again? Evolution is about change and adaptation to the change around you. If a species can't keep up with that change, it will suffer.

just my two cents.

[Chris_Anderson]

Choriona,

While I agree with you to some extent, these geographic localities have become definable variations based on naturally occuring isolation from the other localities of the species. Isolation is a main driver in speciation. Obviously, since they are still able to breed at this point in time, there probably has been more drift in the past then there currently is with some of these localities. As a result, maintaining the localities as distinct in captivity is to go along with their natural occuring isolation and as a result, maintain the potential speciation that selection pressures have been molding over an unknown amount of time without our interference. In my opinion, it is best to go with the natural trends of nature and maintain their genetic isolation.

I've heard reports of F. pardalis x F. oustaleti crosses, F. pardalis x F. verrucosus crosses (although I thought it looked just like any other F. verrucosus), Ch. (T.) sternfeldi x Ch. (T.) j. merumontana crosses and actually, Ch. calyptratus calcalifer is in reality a cross between Ch. arabicus and Ch. calyptratus.

Chris

[K1LOS]

it's my understanding that many species of chameleons travel very limited areas of territory. Some that would remain in the same tree or small group of trees their whole lives.This would suggest that in the wild, there would be limited genetics available to these non-wandering species, and there would be lots of inbreeding. If chameleons in the wild can survive with a small gene pool, then so can captives. I am not sure how far panther chameleon's travel though, anybody else know? I say keep the blood lines pure, and prevent the need to get any wild caught specimens in the future just to get a true nosy be.

Geoff

[choriona]

Chris, I see what you are saying. That there has been enough seperation to be able to find definate characteristics that are unique to a certain locale and not seen with the others....hence the beginnings of a new species. But are these differences morphological or just pigmentation variations? Perhaps the different locations have unique flower quantities making it advantagious to wear one color more often than another. Is the environment dictating the variations or is it due to mate selection? Is one locality becoming morphologically different than another?
Now, I by no means am trying to argue. Since you have taken the time to research this enough to feel that a database would be benificial, I am going to assume you know a lot more than me about the issue. I am looking at this from a scientific background and am interested to hear if you have some answers for my questions.
And this brings me back to a question I had last fall - if you don't know the locale of your female panther, how do you find it a suitable mate? I am wanting to breed my female but no one seems capable of defining the female variations...

[Chris_Anderson]

Choriona,

What drives speciation is a change in gene frequencies. This does not have to be exhibited in strictly morphological terms, it can be expressed by something like genetic coloration or any other genetically controled trait that is selected for, for whatever reason, by the environment and the interaction of the species with it. What I'm trying to say is that a change in gene frequencies is what has caused the differences in locality traits and as such, it is a form of evolution. To use your example of the unique flower, this would put individuals with certain genetic traits (whether it be color patern or other) at an advantage and natural selection would facilitate these animals toward producing more offspring than individuals without genetically advantagous traits, thereby changing the gene frequencies. We can tell these color paterns and other locality traits are in fact genetic by taking two specimens into a captive environment and seeing that the traits are passed on to the offspring (which have never seen their parents and never seen any other native organism to their natural habitat). Therefore, their isolation has been leading to a divergance that I feel should be maintained. Does that make sense?

Chris

[panther_dude]

great explantion couldnt have said it anybetter myself. I love evolution and the prospects of selective breeding. I majored in Bio and we covered that stuff for like two months. Deffinatly the funnest time ive ever had learning lol

[panther_dude]

Good ol' Mister Darwin lol
Gotta love that guy and his finches