check out our collection

Sheldon & Tori · 11-14-03, 05:12 AM

this is our collection. if you look close there are three snakes all curled up together. a 39" male red-tail, a 26" female red-tail, and a 22" royal python. let me know what you think!

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/sh...at=3097&page=1

BoidKeeper · 11-14-03, 05:42 AM

In my opinion, which I'm basing on things I've read and things that I know large breeders do, I feel that snakes should never be housed together. Here are some points that I keep in mind and reasons why I do not house snakes together.
1. The presence of another animal in their space represents competition, competition leads to stress.
2. Stress leads to loss of appetite and or disease.
3. If one sick gets sick they can both get sick.
4. How do you know who is defecating and who is not?
5. Snakes are not social animals so although captivity its self is not natural forcing two animals to live together is even more unnatural.
Now keeping two different species together can open up a whole new can of worms. Different species can be more susceptible to different diseases. Also they can differ in heat and humidity requirements. Ball Pythons and Boas come from two different continents
Cheers,
Trevor

Sheldon & Tori · 11-14-03, 05:57 AM

Thnx for your input trevor but i can (as of right now) prove 1-4 wrong (only because the snakes are so small). I haven't had any competition as of yet (when I took that picture I had just lifted up the hiding spot and found them like that) so, like I said, no competition as of yet. As for the loss of appetite there definately hasn't been a problem there! All three of them are eation like pigs! The sickness part I haven't run into as of yet. The three of them have been living together for over a month now and not even mites have appeared. The defecating part is simple. When you have three snakes that are a foot apart from each other (male boa --> female boa --> female royal) it's quite simple to distinguish between who's feces is who's. As far as the last one goes, other than sleeping these three seem to have no trouble at all finding their own space in my cage (6'x2'x2.5') Now as far as boa's and royal's being from different continents, all the research I've done has concluded that they both require the same temp as well as humidity (well actually the humidity is 5% different). I'm not trying to prove what you've said as being wrong, I'm just saying as far as research that I've done goes, these three are ok together for right now. I will be moving them to different cages as soon as I can afford the supplies to build them.

Jezabel · 11-14-03, 07:13 AM

Great post BoidKeeper.

Sheldon & Tori How a few search on the internet and a month of keeping them together can beat years and years of experiece from some keeper. Great if you had no problem since then but better be safe then sorry. And if your doing this cause you can't afford the supplies to build cages, you doing this for the worst reason I think. If one get sick and the 2 other caught it, it'll be 3 time the price at the vet, will you be able to afford it? At least, separate the ball from the boas.

BoidKeeper · 11-14-03, 08:07 AM

Did you know that in the 80's when boas where being imported in large numbers the first thing the importer would do with the shipment is toss in a Ball python? The reason being that if the boas had IBD it would kill the ball faster then a bullet. Does that tell you anything? If you are keeping three snakes together, one of which is not even the same species you have a lot to learn about husbandry practices and herps in genral. Each snake deserves it's own cage and if can't/won't give it to them or believe they don't need it then you are keeping snakes for selfish reasons and probaly shouldn't have any herps. Anyone who has more snakes then cages is hording animals.
Trevor

brig · 11-14-03, 08:11 AM

First off, I'll say that I don't have experience with Ball Pythons, but I do agree with Jezabel about not keeping different species together - I don't know where you animals came from, and I can't tell from your post if you've only had them a month, or if you've had them longer, but they've only been in the enclosure together a month, but by all the research I've ever done, a month is not sufficient quarantine period for some of the very nasty diseases when can affect both boas and pythons.

In fact, I've read a ton of information on IBD (Inclusion Body Disease), which kills boas AND pythons, but pythons succumb much more quickly. Because of this, it is said that people have 'used' a 'cheap' ball python in a suspect 'expensive' boa cage to see if it dies of the disease, to confirm the boa carries it!!! Not nice, IMO, but this is what I've read! (I can find references if required).

Anyway, the other thing I wanted to say was to do with the animals curling up together. I used to keep two cornsnakes together, and always thought it was nice that they seemed to like to share the same space - they always looked very cosy and content. They never had any eating/defecating problems, and eventually we separated them only because they became 'interested' in each other and the female wasn't large enough to breed (we were a bit naive then - they were our first snakes).
To our amazement, they both thrived far better separately, grew faster for the same amount of food, (in fact, arguably a bit too much!!! LOL), and were just generally better all round.
If I hadn't seen it myself, I would not necessarily believe it. The thing about stress is that it can manifest in many ways, and over a long period of time. Not just the immediate 'my snake won't eat' type of stress.
And the fact that all your animals are going for the same hide spot IS itself competition, to my mind. They are unlikely to want to be with each other, so what's left is that they all want to be in the same optimum spot.

All in all, I think that you'll probably be ok in the short term (and I personally like the fact that your enclosure is so large), and if you really are planning on building new ones, then you seem to be doing the right thing... I just wouldn't leave them as they are for long.

As Jezabel said, better safe than sorry.

Sorry for the lenth of this... once I get started, ya know...

Briggy.

brig · 11-14-03, 08:14 AM

LOL!!! Boidkeeper, we seem to have posted the same thing at the same time... sorry,

Briggy

Linds · 11-14-03, 11:33 AM

In addition to what everyone else has said, same requirements or not... they are still from different geographic areas meangint they all carry their own host specific bacteria which is harmful to those that do not carry it.
I wouldn't be so sure you can distinguish the feces based on size of snake, what is the largest snake is not defecating as healthy as it should be and only a small amount is excreted? Also size brings yet another point, any animals (same species only) that do end up housed together should be relatively the same size.
Snakes that are curled up together may still not be comfortable with eachother, it may be a sign of either dominance or heat conservation.
It really isn't in anyone's best interest to mix species like that. And even still, is it worth risking the well-being of your animals to prove what has been proven right to be wrong?

Zoe · 11-14-03, 11:45 AM

Yeah, I would definitely not keep a ball python with a boa constrictor.
Keeping two boas together is one thing, but ball pythons are a whole different species, family and genus! Not even close. Not to mention, that they don't have exactly the same requirements. Even if their temps and humidity are fairly close, boas in my experience do better with a big cage with lots of roaming room, and ball pythons tend to like cages tight with rocks, branches, etc. Obviously this isn't always true, but it still isn't a good idea to keep them together. Also, ball pythons are shy creatures whereas BCIs tend to be less so. Not a good mix.

Instead of having one HUGE cage, why not just have two appropriately sized cages to meet each of the snake's requirement? You could keep the boas together for now (it's always better to seperate) but keeping different species apart is just common sense.

boa · 11-14-03, 11:45 AM

WOW it's people like you that should not own snakes 3 snakes together ball python with boas wow you should have them housed alone also you should have cared more about those snakes hope you get you s*** together.

Zoe · 11-14-03, 11:48 AM

Quote:

I wouldn't be so sure you can distinguish the feces based on size of snake, what is the largest snake is not defecating as healthy as it should be and only a small amount is excreted?

Good point... my 5'8 irian jaya carpet python has smaller defecations slightly more frequently, but my 5'2 male of the same species has huge ones but less frequently. If I kept them together, I wouldn't know what the heck was going on. They both have the same care, but the small one likes to stay where it's warmest so he digests sooner.

sara · 11-14-03, 12:58 PM

Since your enclosure is so large you could easily install temporary dividers, if you have any questions about how to do it i'm sure someone on the site could help you out.
Think of it this way; you will have to provide more space for them as they grow anyway so why not just get it over with and buy/make 2 extra cages for them now? It really would be better for your animals, and you can cross something off your to-do list at the same time.

Vanan · 11-14-03, 01:10 PM

I know I don't normally post here but just had a couple of questions for Linds and Zoe.

Linds,

Quote:

Snakes that are curled up together may still not be comfortable with eachother, it may be a sign of either dominance

Never heard of that before. Are you referring to males during sexual combat rituals? The only snakes I know to exhibit dominance amongst each other are King cobras.

Zoe,

Quote:

but ball pythons are a whole different species, family and genus

last I heard, there was only one family grouping boas and bp's. Don't mean to be rude or anything but just thought I'd clarify if it's an honest mistake which went unnoticed.

BTW, Sheldon & Tori, do your snakes and the hobby a favour and take the advice of these people. You and your snakes will be thankful for it in the future.

foman · 11-14-03, 01:13 PM

From the posts i have red of yours it seems to me you are doing what is best for you, not what is best for your snakes. Seperate the ball and get your male boa on rats asap. A 3 foot boa should eat rats not mice. Go buy yourself a rubbermaid for the ball python they are super cheap and easy to set up. You could even go that route with the boas as well. You have some beautiful snakes and they deserve the best.

Zoe · 11-14-03, 01:36 PM

Quote:

last I heard, there was only one family grouping boas and bp's. Don't mean to be rude or anything but just thought I'd clarify if it's an honest mistake which went unnoticed.

Maybe, but doesn't it work this way?:
Pythonidae Morelia Spilota Variegata
(Family Genus Species Subspecies)
vs
Boidae Boa Constrictor Imperator
(Family Genus Species Subspecies)

Or is Pythonidae (the family) just a subfamily of boidae?

At least that's the way I learned it in bio :P If I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected!

Zoe