Vermiculite

Tarcan · 10-21-03, 10:29 PM

Hi All, here are the reasons why I HATE vermiculite and strongly believe it is the worst possible substrate...

1) Tarantulas do not live on vermiculite in nature! This is an artificial product, why not use something natural for your animal...

2) IT IS REALLY EXTREMELY UGLY!LOL OK, do not worry, the real objective reasons will come soon...

3) Vermiculite has a very irritating and toxic dust that gets into the book lungs of spiderlings. This blocks the lungs and the spider suffocate to death. I have whitnessed this myself and collected many similar experiences from other hobbyists that did not realize it was because of this but when I mentionned that to them, they were quite fast to acknowledge (all similar ways of dying)... specially Avicularia spp. spiderlings are fragile to this... the spider will never climb and constantly "scratch" it's abdomen... will refuse to eat and one day you find it dead all the legs under the abdomen... I have seen one of my Megaphobema mesomelas spiderling convulse just prior to dying, a very sad and disturbing sight I can tell you. I have lost a lot of spiderlings because of this substrate... on top of that, I am allergic to vermiculite, I scratch myself for at least 4 to 5 days when I use it, so I can only imagine what it can be to "live" on vermiculite 24 hours a day... poor little spiders...

4) Vermiculite has a great tendency to retain moisture... a quality that can be bad... It is harder to visually monitor the degree of humidity of vermiculite then peat moss or soil for exemple... a dry vermiculite substrate will actually dry even more the surrounding air of the enclosure because it has such a great affinity to moisture... not a big deal you tell me... in case of a spiderlings, it can easily prove to be fatal... since they are very fragile to dehydration...

5) People that use vermiculite argues that it helps to not have mites in the enclosure because it is artificial... for having examined a lot of other hobbysist's set ups that use vermiculite, I can tell you that the mites are there and it is not true... just a lot more difficult to spot that's all but quite easy when you know exactly waht you are looking for and when to look for them! Since they are pretty much the same color of the substrate (the mites)... an unexperienced hobbysist will eventually only notice the mites when the outburst it huge, sometimes too late for the spiderling... remember that it is very often the food items that carries the mites, so vermiculite or not, if you do not clean up, the mites will eventually proliferate... another thing on that subject, people that use too big enclosures for spiderlings will have problem seeing if the pinheads have been eaten or not since they are similar in color to the substrate...

6) Borrowing species hate vermiculite... they will sometimes get used to it but it is rare, it is no good for digging and having a solid burrow. None of my Asian species ever constructed burrows when I had tried it... all burrowed within one or two weeks after putting them back on a natural substrate...

This is based on personnal experience, I have lost a lot of valuable animals because of this substrate (I can think of right now 1 X M. mesomelas, 2 X P. subfusca, quite a few C. fimbriatus, etc. the list goes on...). Why risk it happening when you can use some very nice and efficient natural substrate.

I would just like to finish that if you want to insist to continue to use this substrate, remember to always soak it before putting it in the enclosure, it helps reducing the toxic dust... and also remember that i warned you... good luck

Martin

Dani33 · 10-21-03, 10:42 PM

What substrates do you suggest, I have been using a mix of coconut fiber and vermiculite. I certainly would not want any of my animals to come to any harm! I would change it in an instant. You know which T's I have what would you suggest for all three? Another question, My pinktoe is currently in a critter keeper on it's side, temporary. It's hard to keep up the humidity. Is it ok to cover some of the crate? The ambient humidity goes from 80-60% rather quickly. Any suggestion?

Tarcan · 10-22-03, 05:30 PM

Dani, I am not familiar with coconut fiber... I do not even know what it is!LOL

The one thing with vermi is that it is much safer when it is mixed with something else... my thread was about straight vermi substrate... it seems the dust gets settled just like when you water the vermi before using it...

Since I do not know the coconut thing, it is hard for me to comment... but I use organic soil mixed with peat moss for all my terrariums... and I add some sphagnum on top at some places for decoration and to help retain the moisture... only my arboral animals I keep only on a bed of sphagnum moss but it is only for a practicle purpose, since I use critter pans on the side, earth would fall out of the ventilation holes...

As long as your humidity does not drop below 60% it is quite fine with a juvenile to adult pinktoe... infact, the ventilation is a good thing...

I keep my Avics in set-ups that seems similar to how yours sounds... I breed them in there also, I do not see any problems with what you described to me...

Good luck with your animals

Martin

Tim and Julie B · 10-22-03, 06:02 PM

Hi Martin I couldn't agree more about vermiculite. I used it only twice and both times with bad results. I also use coconut fiber as well. I know you probably have a system down by now but I have tried organic soil and this is better. It is dry if you want it dry or can hold some moisture and man can it hold a burrow! My Thai Tiger has dug a trench! It comes in hard block that expands when you add water. It is sold in petstores as Eco earth i think . Zoo med has one. But I buy mine at a hydroponic store you can get 70 liters (after expansion) for $15. You can get smaller blocks as well. I love the stuff. TB

arachnomania · 10-22-03, 06:35 PM

Holy jeeze! I really don't know what you guys are talking trash about vermiculite for, "lol"? I have been using this subtrate for over 14 years now and never had problems. I'm not just saying this either. My burrowing species have absolutely no trouble diging their burrows and they do not collapse. I have switched to coconut husk mulch for a few of my species and it dries up way too fast. Ah well, that's my opinion.
take care buds,

Tarcan · 10-22-03, 06:38 PM

Oh, I know what it is now... I never used it though but it does sound really good... unfortunatly the only time I saw those were in pet stores and I never shop for my things at pet stores... way too expensive!LOL (hardware stores, Wal Mart and local drug store rules!)

If I find a cheap source I would really be happy to try it, I will look into that, always looking to improve the keeping techniques...

So in that perspective, I believe your substrate should be OK Dani...

Tim and Julie B · 10-22-03, 06:40 PM

Maybe we should try a coconut and vermiculite mix? Mmm I think we might be on to something. Actually now that I think about it I raised my Salem in a pill bottle with vermiculite.

Oh for curiosity sakes has anyone tried perlite? Or a mix?

TheRedDragon · 10-22-03, 09:02 PM

Tarcan, since I have an aboreal species, what do you reccomend would be the best substrate for her? Right now I have her on organic soil.

Dani33 · 10-22-03, 10:04 PM

That's great, I am glad that it's ok. I always worry about my babies! I didn't know that I could buy the coconut fiber at a hydoponic store. I have one that is a block away from me. I do think that the brick that I bought at the pet store will last me a looonnggg time though, I was suprised at the amount I got after soaking it! Luckily, I sawed some frome the brick and didn't soak the whole thing! With the critter keeper, I glued a piece of ruler inside with aquarium silicone and it prevents the substrate from falling out.

Danielle

Dani33 · 10-22-03, 10:10 PM

Hey Erin, I just realised that you are from Calgary! I was born there. I miss it allloooottt! Most of my family lives out that way.

Danielle

TheRedDragon · 10-22-03, 10:19 PM

Dani, I just moved here a year ago actually, I was born in Deadmonton, I really don't regret moving here at all. It's beautiful right here now, no snow, and nice and warm of course.

Have you considered moving back?

Dani33 · 10-22-03, 10:24 PM

I wish, I am recently married and we purchased a house here. My husband has a good job here. My 12 year old nephew just moved in with us as well, his mother is ill and needs to be close. I miss it all the time! We actually may go next year for a trip. My husband hasn't seen the mountains.

Emily-Fisher · 10-25-03, 06:00 AM

Funny, the only tarantulas I use vermiculite for are the slings! All of my adults are on soil except for my rio grande gold who is on sand.

The slings that have vermiculite have no trouble burrowing in the stuff and do it all the time bu now I'm really freaked out for my babies.. I'll change it when I have more soil.