badly deformed leo. Very sad.

damzookeeper · 07-21-03, 10:56 AM

I had a leo born to soon and it's eye are not devoloped. It is a couple weeks old and it seems to be doing worse each day. It is very hyper when touched, but it does not eat on it's own and the eyes look terrible. It also does not look like the mouth is formed properly. The eyes seem like they are not formed and kind of black holes. It also has now started to get a soft lump on its head over one eye, I hate to think it is in pain and I want to put it down but I'm not sure what is the best way? should I do it myself or call in the vet, it is about 3 inches and 4 grams. Can someone help? I don't have any herp vets around here, closest one is over an hour away, but I think I am going to try to call a local vet and see if they can put it down for me tonight after work. Not sure if they will know anything about it or how to euthenize it.

Samba · 07-21-03, 11:10 AM

I'm sorry to hear about your gecko. Non-reptilian vets can still euthanize your gecko. (This is simply an overdose of a medicine anyways). I would like to see some pics of this gecko, if it is not too late. Perhaps if you find a herp vet you can consult with him or her about the gecko. Sometimes they look worse than they are. Good Luck and keep us updated!

drewlowe · 07-21-03, 11:23 AM

Personally i would freeze it. i had 2 babies born last year without eyes. After 3 weeks of them not eating at all i decied to put them to sleep. All you do is place them in a container and then put them in the freezer. They go to sleep then they are completely gone. It's simple and humane. I know it seems sad and cruel, i used to think it was but it's really not.

Sorry about the little one. It's something i know you really don't want to do. I'm again going through a deformity problem. i just recently had one hatch out that has one arm basicly stuck under his body and after less than a week it looks like it is going to fall off. I have to contenplate whether or not to put that one to sleep also.

eyespy · 07-21-03, 12:20 PM

Freezing is very painful to reptiles, they are unable to move or respond but they can still feel. Back in the dark ages they used to put reptiles in the refrigerator to immobilize them before surgery and we've since found that their cortisol and pain levels were through the roof.

Blood studies of cortisol before and after freezing show similar results, they feel the pain and the cold, but are unable to do anything about it as their bodies become torpid.

drewlowe · 07-21-03, 01:55 PM

wow i'm sorry i didn't know all that. I was told by several breeders and 2 vets that it was more humane than euthanizing. That makes me feel absolutly horrible that i did it now.

Samba · 07-21-03, 02:00 PM

I think the most humane way to end an animals life is to gas it. They say the gas puts them to sleep, and then their bodily functions slow down and eventually stop. I think freezing is aweful! Anyone who has a heart wouldn't do that. It seems to me that freezing is a 'cost-effective' way to euthanize animals for people who don't want to pay for the vet to do it 'right'. Most often they do not care or concern themselves with the suffering an animal has to go through before dying. Disgusting.

drewlowe · 07-21-03, 02:13 PM

My reasoning wasn't cost effective at all i would spend the money no questions asked. The reason i did it was because i was told by "several" people that is was better than euthanising reptiles. If i would have known what eyespy just said I would have NEVER in a million years done it. It makes me feel absolutly horrible knowing i put them through more pain.

The way freezing was explained to me:
They go to sleep then they never wake up. And it's completely painless. this is basicly the way everyone i talked to explained it.

and as i said if i would have known that wasn't true i would have NEVER done it.

CDN-Cresties · 07-21-03, 02:20 PM

Sorry about your baby gecko, my condolences

-Steve-

Siretsap · 07-21-03, 02:23 PM

Until there is a scientific study proving that reptiles have feelings, I am not in agreement with eyespy. Lizards act on instinct not with sentiments. A reptile can burn itself to death without knowing it. How many times have people seen their reptiles burn on a heatrock or heatpad?
I freeze my dying reptiles since they are cold blodded. Freezing them does not hurt, their system slows down till the point where the heart gives up. It's just as humane as gas. The reptile will go into his hibernation cycle so he doesn't feel some pain!

damzookeeper · 07-21-03, 03:30 PM

Hi, thanks for all the replies. Samba, I took some pics for you (and anyone else interested in seeing her deformities) tonight and put them up on a page, since I took a dozen it was easier to post a page instead of all the pictures. You can see it is quite bad. I am waiting to hear back from a friend who said he knows a vet in a near by town that helps him with his herps on occasion. She is by far a herp vet but she tries her best so I'd rather go to her than just anyone if I have a choise. But I'm going to call a couple others and see what they have to say about it.
I don't want to wait too long if she is suffering, although she doesn't seem to be in any pain, she doesn't cry or isn't lithargic or anything but God only knows how this little girl feels. I feel so bad for her.

I think the best thing would be to put her down. I will keep you all posted.

Here are the pictures of my "little angel".

deformed baby

MartinW · 07-21-03, 03:37 PM

Poor little girl

Let us know what happens. I feel bad enough worrying about my baby girl not eating enough, you must feel terrible.

Martin

Gregg M · 07-21-03, 04:13 PM

I would just do it myself...... I dont hink I would do the freezer thing but a quick snap of the neck and its all over....... It is a tough thing to do to a pet but it may be better off....... Sorry about your gecko.......

eyespy · 07-21-03, 04:15 PM

Siretsap, there have been a lot of studies done on pain and pain management in reptiles, RA Bennett has practically based a career on it. It's to the point now that veterinarians in many states in the US risk points against their license for advocating freezing or withholding anesthesia during surgery.

Here's a link with a decent bibliography on pain perception and management for reptilian medicine:

http://www.anapsid.org/herppainbiblio.html

fanmaninacan · 07-21-03, 04:18 PM

I agree with gregg......NO pain...It wont die slow.....sounds awful but think about it...

T.P

damzookeeper · 07-21-03, 04:53 PM

Thanks for the suggestion Gregg but I just couldn't bring myself to do something like that unless it was dire needs (on the spot, I know there is pain, has to be put down right now! situation). And even then I would feel bad for a long time afterwards. I made an appointment for the little girl to be euthenized (hope I'm spelling that right, not an everyday spelling word, thank God!) But anyway, the crappy part is that I couldn't get an appointment till Wednesday because the vets are out of town till then. If I wanted anything before I would have to travel 45 minutes out of town and hope they can "fit me in". Got to love small town vets, don't cha?! So anyway, She will be put to sleep on Wednesday, also they aren't equipt for the gas so it will be an ingection and she said it takes a bit longer than the gas but they will not be in any pain, and will go to sleep. It doesn't cost that much eithor, for those interested. It is under $20 and she said if they had the gas as well it would be about double the cost, which still isn't all that bad for piece of mind.
I'm going to hate to see this little girl go after feeding her daily for about 2 weeks now, but I know she will be better off.