A bit confused on heating issues

[jwsporty]

Hey folks,


Well in the never ending quest to do it right the first time, I have setup my boa tank using a UTH for heating. Hot zone is 90-95, ambient temp is 80-85,( per specs in the Boa Constrictor Manual). I use a 50 watt infrared for ambient heat supplement on the cool side,a UV bulb 75 watt on the hot side (upper half above a perch) and a small UTH for the hot side set to max at 95 during daylight hours, night time (with the UV light turned off temps at the floor measure in at 90 degrees) Temps are constantly being monitored, both upper and lower levels, on both the hot and cool sides. Humidity ranges from 43% to 50%. Large water dish is positioned midway in the tank and is changed for fresh water "daily" without fail. I do have an ultra-sonic fogger to increase humidity as needed but so far I have not used it in the Boa setup. The substrate is white paper towel only. I am being very picky with this setup as my boa has regurged twice on me and yes I have waited two weeks between feedings. The last attempt at food so far seems to be successful, three days passed and still no regurging. Much as I don't like doing this the last feed was a live juvenile mouse as he has been stubborn on F/T. We'll work on that one, once I get a clear answer on the heating. Incidently the Boa Manual condones the use of UTH..

and then I read this ....

excerpt from boa-constrictors.com


We strongly discourage people from using ground heaters, especially those with a high wattage, because the snakes lay on them and dry out. We have received several calls from people seeking advice, because their python was having a bad shed and looking very wrinkled. These people swear that the humidity lies above 60%. Right, but not immediately on the ground heater! Measure that spot sometime, and you will be very surprised: 35% or less are no rarity. Unfortunately, the snakes love these spots, because they are nice and warm. They are simply too stupid to realize that resting on a strong heat pad or heating cable is slowly but surely killing them.

The ground heaters they are mentioning are not the Hot Rocks, as they had already discouraged their use. They continue in the article to say that they have thrown out all their heat pads and now use heat lamps exclusively..

What about belly heat for digestion? ....

So now I am confused.

The big question is do you or don't you use UTH in your setups ?

All my other setups use them and until further notice I will keep using them on the boa tank.

and while I am at it, what about the use of foggers as a regular part of the timed cycle of events? Say once or twice a day, maybe early evening and early morning? I plan on sticking with paper towel as the substrate and I don't feed in the the tank. The tank is check for soiled spots daily.

I would like to hear people's views on this as I am also in the planning stages to convert an old store display fixture into the boas permanent home. More on that later.

As usual your insights are appreciated.

Jim

[unBOAlievable]

My head is still spinning from reading your setup, you are definately willing to go the extra mile.

1st did you have this heat setup before the boa regurged? Or was the minimum heat on the cool side at least 78 with a warm side.

If so the regurge was not from improper heating but more likely either stress (do you have a hide spot) or it could be medical (bacterial or protazoan infection) so you should take it to a vet, or the prey item is to large, which doesnt sound like the item is to large in this case.

As far as heat pads go or uth they can malfunction and bake your reptile this is why a thermostat is important but I have used them for many,many years and not burned a reptile yet. I have seen many cases of people using heat lamps without a thermostat and the room temperature goes up and then it bakes the animal and kills it. If you search around you will find more reptiles killed by heatlamps than by heat tape.

I always monitor the heat side and do not worry about the cool side. After years of taking notes on boas particularly Boa c. imperator and Boa c.c. after a meal they prefer to be 86-91 degrees I have never recorded a boa any higher than 91 even when gravid. So my heat pads are set on 90 and the ambient room temperature is usually 78-82 degrees.

Hope this helps,

[Linds]

I would disregard that little bit you found on bottom-heating methods drying out snakes. This method of heating has been widely used for years by breeders and hobbyists alike with a great deal of success. This is the olnly method I use to heat my snakes and all of them are well hydrated and have perfect sheds*

[Edwin]

Any type of heat source will dry the surrounding air. Perhaps boa-constrictors.com was more concerned with people using overly high heat sources, as they mentioned "high-wattage" and "strong heat pad". Ground heat sources are the most common source of heating used by most herpers.

For humidity, my personal take on it is to not worry too much about maintaining overall humidity throughout the enclosure, but instead provide a humid hide box or two for your snake.

Hope this helps.

[reptile gallery]

Hey jwsporty...
I applaude you for doing your homework!!! Remember the word OVER, as this is the underlying problem with many (not all..and not necessarily you!) first time herp keepers. OVER handle...OVER heat..OVER light..OVER feed..OVER house..OVER fret...you get the picture. You raise a very interesting point re:heating...and yes, there has been conflicting information surfacing lately. There have been some comments made from a few big, well respected herpetologists, questioning our heating methods. Please remember that although I am about to list these arguements, I am not decided myself, and these opinions are not necessarily my views. Seems that the primary area of dispute revolves around heat pads vs ambient heating. Turns out substrate heating may not be appropriate for most of the snakes we keep, as most are of tropical, desert, and sub tropical regions and these areas provide ambient temps in line with the animals requirements. Arboreal species for example live most if not all their lives above the ground and do not seek 'ground basking areas' to heat themselves. Even tropical ground dwelling species rely on ambient temp changes to regulate their specific needs. It is the snakes of temperate climates that most often seek out the substrate-type heat(a warmed rock in nature, etc) to regulate theit particular needs. We, however, do not keep many temperate species in our collections!! This, so the arguement goes, leads to shedding problems, digestion and feeding problems, reproductive issues(to high/low direct temp related to substrate heating) etc. I am just one of many hobbiests that uses a combination of substrate/ambient heating methods. I will admit however that I have paid attention to this issue and have began to switch some of my heating methods over from substrate to ambient as they apply to each species needs on an individual basis. There are well known breeders that have used their method of heating for many years and it has been incredibly succesful for them, so the debate continues. Bottom line...follow the advice and recomendations of the top names in the field that have the valuable first hand experience and you can't go wrong.

Again, people are very opinionated as it relates to their animals, and rightly so. Just stating the issue folks..not really sure yet which side I'm on.
Thoughts........?????

[unBOAlievable]

Of course you have to use different heating methods with different species, such as the temperature gradient changes with each species pertaining to what kind of climate they are from.
I also have seen my tree boas and 12 foot scrub hanging from there perches under there radiant heat panel and then climb to the bottom of there cage to lie on a heating pad.

To get to the point, whether you heat with incadescent bulbs,radiant heat panels, or heat the room and use heatpads-heattape as long as the temperatures are relative to those listed in most care books from cool side to the hot side the reptile of choice should be fine, of course a tree snake will benefit more from an overhead heat source. The basic temps used in reptile books are just guides, we have to fine tune them to each snake with what works best for that individual snake.

If the temperatures are proper and a snake is drying out maybee it should have some water, if it has water maybe it needs a humidity chamber or maybe it is sick and dying. There are to many variables and each snake is different even in the same species.

I have over 30 species in my facility not including monitors, tegus, and tortoises and none of which have shedding problems not even my Calabaria reinhardti which has full sheds.

[jwsporty]

As always..That's great info people. As the bulk of my collection is colubrids, everything is on thermostats and digital thermometers, I just wanted to make sure everything was right as this is my first and likely my only boa. I will be booking an appointment with the vet for a general health check tomorrow. I will attribute the regurge to stress and yes there was a possibility that the tank temp may have dropped down out of range. I remember seeing a reading of 69 degrees on the cool side at one point shortly after I got him. The heat pad was setup and it never went over the 95 max. There were lots of hides and climbs and he is using them. In the meantime, he has eaten and everything appears to be ok. I'll also drop the high side temp to 90

thanks again folks

Jim

[djc3674]

wow..you guyz definately go the extra mile..maybe im not doing enough? I have my Columbia Boa approx 6.5 ft in a 125 gal tank that is 6ft long...1.8 deep..and 1.5 high. I have a big water bowl on one end...a big heat pad on the other end..where the hide box is, and a basking light on the side where the heat pad is. I only have one thermometer in the tank and its on the warm side and is usually 80-85 degrees. He just moves to the other side when he gets too warm. He has never regurged and sheds nicely. Am I just meeting the bare requirements or am I just lucky? I am open to contructive critisism. The only thing I think maybe I should do is put a hide box on the cool side as well. do I really need all that extra equipment you guyz were talking about. oh yeah..and I mist the tank frequently.

[unBOAlievable]

Your setup sounds great with the exception of the fact you did not mention a thermostat. Without a thermostat lets say for example, your room air conditioner goes out, you are not home and during the hot part of the day your room heats up to 90 degrees. Warm air heats faster than cool air so without a thermostat your heatlamp and heat pad keep on heating and in a matter of no time your cage is at well over a hundred degrees and that will be on the cool side. Your boa could easily die at those temps.

As far as the hide box goes, it can never hurt to have it and I bet it will use it if for nothing else than to lay on top of it.

The size of the aquarium sounds fine, of course others will argue that they need more room. More room is great but they can live well without it. So as I have said before, if you think it is to small then it is. Larger cages are only for our own conscience.

[ReptiZone]

This is how I do things I am no pro but I use comen sence ok.

FIRST OFF: I heat heating pads with a passion the snakes dont have a volcano under there bodies do they? So why put one.

I I put the amount of heat bulbs need to het the cage at a good a temp then I place the day lights on one switch and the night lights on another one. Lets say it takes 3 lights to heat the day time and 2 for the night time then in the morning i open the cage spray and hit the switches at night the sam thing spray and hit the switches. for the hot spot i put 2 lights on one side and the other one on the opposit side at night you have one on each side.

Now ppl say we need to give snkes het under there bellys to help digest yes do we need to thro a pad in to do that? NO!

the side that has 2 lights place a big flat rock in 2 hours of constant heat lamp glaring on it it will be real good temps for digestion.

so now you have a problem a cage is only so big lets get creative here.

you know thows 1foot brick's you can get well put a layer of mulch down and place the flat rock over the brick now I dont care if you have to cement it in place the rock can not move or it may fall on the snake now you have the floor area a warm hid And a place to go and digest.

You can do the same for the water dish 2 bricks or 4 depending on the size of the dish.

make sure the platform can't move at all now you have a hid on the cool side and the water dish.

the pluss side to all this is that what ever your snake wants to do it must move and exercise a bit to do it.

Call me crazy but it seams to be a good system never had a problem with it so give it a try if you feal like a change some day.

[djc3674]

ok..what do you mean by thermostat...i know what a thermostat is ..i am wondering where it goes? Do I plug it into the surge protector and then the heat lamps and heat pads plug into it? I never used one before, so I need some help as to what kind i need and how to set it up. I definately do not want my snakes to die from overheating! oh and btw..i do not have an air conditioner in the room where the snakes are...i believe I have an extra one though to use for the summer months..but it doesnt really have a setting that will allow it to turn off at a certain temp..its basically high cool/low cool.

[unBOAlievable]

Excuse me chondro python but I definately thought the forums were a place to help people with the way we do things not bash someone elses setups.

I hate heat lamps with a passion so I do not promote them but I do not condemn people for using them because some people use them successfully.

Was it not one of your post that said,

"the managers neglagence ended up cooking her in her own enclosure"

and

"she did that is where she was found the thing is that the zoo was at almost 90*F and the cage heat lamp was still on. I was cleening up the prep room and he was killing the lights B4 we went out herping and he mised the retic light."

Hey a thermostat could have saved that retic's life.

I have been keeping reptiles for well over 20 years and hang with well known herpetologist and none of them have ever bashed my setups.

I only use heat pads, Dave and Traci Barker use only heat tape, Rich Ihle uses heat tape, Jeff Ronne uses heat tape, Ricco Walder only uses heat lamps, I sure don't remember telling him that I hate his setup when I was at his facility, he used them well. Jim Kavney and Jerry Conway use no external heat sources the temps outside are the temps of the snake, no basking spots whatso ever and Jerry has even had paid vacations to the International herp symposiom for his work with Candoia.

So volcano I do not have. I do have a nice balmy 90 degree basking spot for my boas. Have you been taking temps every day and recording the temps of over 100 snakes every morning and evening to see what temps they prefer for over seven years?

You see a 90 degree basking area is a 90 degree basking area no matter how you get it to 90 degrees. The temperature is the same example: Heat lamp under it 90 degrees. Heat tape over it 90 degrees, not a volcano, my temps are the same as yours buddy.

I was talking to Robert Applegate once and just for fun I called him a professional whithout even thinking he said "I do not believe that there are any professionals in this field"


In answere to the positioning of the thermostats since I was sidetracked, is to do it properly, two thermostats would be used, one for the heat tape directly over it under the substrate set at that volcano type heat of 90 degrees this is the basking area. The heat lamp which runs at a cool 90 degrees is working only to raise the ambiant temps I would put it about halfway, set about an inch above the substrate set on around 82, you can fine tune this by watching which side he hangs on more.
With this setup you kindof have a heat backup if one goes out. But the heat pad will not raise the ambiant temps much if the heat lamp goes out.
The heat tape-heatpad plugs into one thermostat the heat lamp woul plug into the other

Oh and by the way I have never killed a snake on heat tape, but I have saved a couple of hundred lives.

[chuck911jeep]

Hi Dude!
Since when you got you boa???Is it a Suriname? Some baby Suriname do this often. maby it's just some stress. Is it a wc? wc have those probleme often. When i get mine i had the same probleme + shedding probleme.If the vet tell you your snake is healthy, leave him alone in a quiet room and he will acclimate to is environnement.

[djc3674]

well put unBoalievable!..condro boy comes off as a cocky know it all (so he thinks) who cant give a reply respectfully. People do things the way they see fit..and as long as the animal is well cared for..who cares which way is used to digest his food etc etc..
I have only been keeping snakes for a year and a half now..so I am trying to find out as much as possible...I have used a heat pad and basking light..(just one..not a thousand!) and keep the temps between 78-85 degrees depending on time of day..and have never had a single problem no regurges..or anything. I problably should get more thermometers..I have one on the warmer side of each tank..im sure under the hide box on top of the heat pad..its warmer than 85. Besides..with w/ 2 tanks..soon to be 3..in a spare bedroom w/ a computer running most of the time..the room stays nice and toasty anyway...i keep a close watch on the thermometers in each tank..to make sure its not too high. I thought there was something i can hook up that would turn of the basking lights off automatically if the temp's in the tanks got too high? I see unBoa..that you just have a hand held thermometer. I have the thermometers that you stick on the glass inside the tank. What other options should I consider without have 6 different lights on. As it is I will be adding another tank when my Hog arrives.

[unBOAlievable]

Maybe I did come off a little strong. I got some bad news yesterday and after reading his post, well it really ercked me. Sorry.

As snake keepers, we all use different methods and what works for me might not work for someone else and vice versa. Every snake is different and has different tolerance levels. You work with your snake every day so no one would know better if your snake is content and thriving than you.

I always try to provide the best care for my reptiles as possible but there is no set in stone guidelines on how to do it, so for me to say I have the best setup would be wrong or for me to condemn someone elses would be wrong. We are all still learning.

Remember that this is just how I run my facility.
I heat my room to an ambient temperature of roughly 78 . I do this with sealed oil filled heaters that were run on a thermostat that was backed up by another thermostat. I also have an airconditioner set on a digital thermostat at 84. Both are always on so if the room heats up past 78 the heat cuts off. During the summer if my room heats up to 84 the air cuts on so I am covered for all seasons. I have fans placed at several point in my facility to make sure there are no hotspots.

During the season changes the room cycles itself so the summer it runs warmer and the winter it runs cooler with night time drops as low as 68.

In my python and boa cages I have a standard heating pad under one end of the cage. My cages have divider blocks underneath to keep the heat on that side of the cage so it does not heat the cool side.

I set the heat pads to run between 88-90. I also check them every morning and every night.

I use no heat tape at all on my colubrids.

I have a window in my facility with no other cage lighting. I also believe this helps cycle snakes.

I hope this helps,

Remember we cant re create nature all we can do is try to mimic it.