Pit Viper Venom

[shaggybill]

Do all pit vipers have hemotoxic venom, or do some have neurotoxic?

Also, could someone tell me what both types of those venom do? I know hemo. has something to do with your blood, and neuro does something with your nerves, right? What are the results of each?

Thanks

[Matt]

the term "pit viper" is a very broad term.
some pit vipers do have neurotoxic venom.

neurotoxic venom attacks the nervous system causing damage to neurons and blocking synapses and possibly leading to paralysis of muscles and organs.

hemotoxic attacks the blood, resulting in hemorragic effects, internal bleeding and possibly some cellular damage to blood vessels.

***someone plese add to these if necessary, its quite a broad view on the subject***

[BWSmith]

(bear with me, I have not finished my first cup of coffee )

It is a safe bet that just about all vipers will have hemotoxins. Hemos ar pretty much what matt said, but they also affect the clotting of the blood.

The sole purpose of a neurotoxin is to shut down the diaphragm, thus killing the victim (whether is be a prey item or a human from a defensive bite).

I think the best example of neurotoxins in Crotalids is the Mojave Green Rattlesnake (Crotalus scutalatus). I would also say the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake (Crotalus adamanteus) and the Canebrake Rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus atricaudatus).

Of course breaking down venom into 2 groups is a simplistic look at it. Snake venom is one of the most complex natural substances on the planet. It is basically a a soup of different toxins that perform individual acts (such as targeting the heart or destroying muscle tissue) or working as a group to enhance the properties of each and the overall effectiveness of the venom. Venom is also not a stagnent science. Evolution is in progress. The snakes are getting hotter. There have been found geographic variations in the neurotoxicity of the Canebrake. Rattler established.

GOD! I love this stuff!!!!

[J_Riley]

Originally posted by BWSmith
(The sole purpose of a neurotoxin is to shut down the diaphragm, thus killing the victim (whether is be a prey item or a human from a defensive bite).

By suffocation by stoping breathing, in case anyone doesn't know what the diaphragm is.


I have a question. Supposing by some freak chance, a turtle is envenomated with neurotoxic venom, what will happen? Seeing as turtles don't have a diaphragm? Sorry, BW, just picking and yes, I saw the coffee disclaimer

[shaggybill]

Ok, so lets take the Copperhead for instance. Would they be more of a hemotoxic or neurotoxic venom? Is it the same for a cotton?

Also, do both hemo and neuro result in tissue loss?

[BWSmith]

Copperheads are considered Hemotoxic, same witht he Cotton. But the Cotton produces a whole other setof issues that i wont go into. To my knowledge, neurotoxins do not cause tissue damage. However many "neurotoxic" snakes have other toxins that do cause it. Naja kaouthia is a prime example.

[BWSmith]

Sorry J, forgot about your question. What the neurotoxin actually dose is block the recievers of nerve impulses so that there is no communication. Perhaps there is a reason why it seams to specifically target the diaphragm and respiritory failure is the most common cause of death (renal failure is another). As far as turtles......... i am unaware of any venomous snake that takes turtles as prey. But it would be a site to see! You think there is lump from a rat! lol

[shaggybill]

Do you know of any websites that give some pretty good info on pit viper venom? Books arent in my budget right now. Maybe after this semester...

[Matt]

This is a chart of North American species normal yeild and lethal dose of venom.
Im not sure if thats what you are looking for, but Im sure it can be of some interest to you.
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/pages/venchart

[cobraman]

Brian, you got your doo doo together on this topic. I might add that all venomous snakes have some degree of neurotoxins in their venoms. The coral snake and some of the kraits are some of the very few snakes that are almost 100% neurotoxic (having no cyto, myo, cardio, heamo, toxins) I'm with you Brian, I love this stuff!
Blessings
Ray

[cobraman]

Oh, yeah, about the turtles, the neurotoxins do not just attack the costaphrenic muscles controling the diaphragm, so my guess is that the turtle would still die.
Ray

[shaggybill]

Something else I'm confused about is when people get tagged by a rattler or cotton, they'll sometimes lose a finger or some other part of their body. What is it that does this? Is it a characteristic of either hemo or neuro, or both?

[shaggybill]

Never mind last question...I just saw it was sort of answered above. So its the hemotoxic venom that results in tissue loss, right?

[J_Riley]

yep, the beginning of the digestion process. Generally the pieces that get lost are smaller, like fingers and toes...but bad envenomations that go a long time before treatment could probably result in the loss of the entire hand...the longer the venom circulates, the more the tissue become a bunch of goo, for a lack of a scientific explaination

Ray/Brian, I was just picking on Brian about the diaphragm comment with the turtle crack...I dunno, if a really hungry cotton will try and scrap road kill frogs up, I bet one would try and eat a hatchling painted turtle...hell, Nerodia eat them...

[shaggybill]

Ok. So with a decent envenomation from lets say...a cotton, how long would it take to lose a finger or toe. I know you probably dont know specifics, but could you make a guestimation. Minutes?Hours? days?