Venomoids.........#@$%&*

[Gregg M]

Why is it every time I go on the OTHER site someone is asking about how to get a venomoid???? I dont understand....... What a disaster this has become...... This is just another thing that ruins our awsome hobby...... Sorry but I just needed to vent alittle.....

[snakemann87]

hey, I know how you feel. Recently somone (no mention), said in a few years he would like to keep venomous, but first he wants to own venomoids to PRACTICE. He said many times, "whats wrong with a venomoid?". I was shocked, I simply left.

[asphyxia]

Please explain what the word "venomoids" means

Thanks
Brian

[Matt]

i completely agree gregg, its just the "fallic syndrome" of people wanting to SAY they keep hots and flaunt it, but refuse to take the real responsibilities that come along with the real thing.
I dont agree with what it does to the animals either!

[Gregg M]

It is when some butcher takes a perfectly good venomous snake and rips its face apart to take the venom glands out so they can play with a gaboon viper or cobra without being envenomated if a bite should happen.... It is mean and crule to do and should be outlawed

[BWSmith]

OK, now ya did it. Ya got me talking about voids.

Here is a post I made on reptilehaven.net's venomous forum entiltled "Venomoids and Herpetoculture"

" Despite the obvious health problems that the aminal will endure, something else must be considered. Safety of the keeper and community. I liken buying a venomoid to someone handing you a gun, and you putting it to your head and pulling the trigger because THEY said it was unloaded. These surguries have been known to regenerate over time. Look at your own body, some wounds scar froever and some heal completely. The ductectomy is particularly likely to not be permanent condition. simply severing and cauderizing the venom ducts has been known to regenerate in the past. What do you have then? A hot snake and an incapable and incompetant keeper placing himself, his family, and the community at risk.

Noone can predict what nature is going to throw at them. In the words of Jurassic Park: "Nature Finds a Way."

I once had a dog run away. Why dont we just cut the legs off all dogs so they can't do that?
That cat meows too much. Let's tear out its vocal cords. Maybe bust out all its teeth, just so we know it won't bite.

I am disgusted by the fact that venomoids are becoming so popular. What disturbs me even more is that they are portrayed as "PETS"

Myself and many other hot keepers in the SHHS has decided that we will never buy an animal from ANY dealer that sells venomoids. Many have even refused to attend shows where venomoids are being sold. Their seem to be several dealers are working exclusively in venomoids. Perhaps some will survive. Hopefully they will fail or see the err in their ways. I am comprising a list of dealers who work with venomoids. These are only the ones who have the surgury done for profit. As anyone in the hobby knows, occasionaly the odd venomoid comes through in a trade. i do not hold these people accountable. Only the ones who intentionally produce these poor souls from a once magnifiscent creature. "

Now for some new stuff. After disussing this subject with Ray Hunter (Cobraman) a while back, he decided that Exotic Reptiles Jungle would no longer sell venomoids. I admire the love for the animals outweighing the almighty dollar and i applaude Ray for this choice and now consider him a friend.

Stories I have heard that scare the hell out of me. These two came fromt he same, reliable and honest source and I have had the first verified by another. A "Do-It-yourself Venomoid Kit" And second, animals being sold as venomoids when they are actually fully hot and never had the surgury just so the dealer can make more money!!!!!!


I think venomoids are an abomination of nature and an insult to everything I try to teach and believe. I have an ongoing boycott list of ANY dealers that create or sell venomoids. In my opinion, these people have no respect for the animals and see it as a status symbol. But as long as Croc Hunter wanna-be's and macho idiots with an inferiority complex keep buying them they will keep selling them and producing them.



On another note, I would like to say that Steeve is immune to my comments as his case was calmly and honestly prtrayed and hold him at no fault for having owned one.

[Vanan]

Ok, first up, I'm in no way taking sides on this issue and if it makes you guys feel at ease, I do agree with alot you've said.

Out of curiosity, what would be wrong with a responsible, level-headed, non-testosterone-pumping, adult, keeping a venomoid, while treating it with full respect. If he still were to not handle it, use hooks, tongs, special cages, the whole nine yards. Maybe he got the venomoid just to reduce the risk of a fatal envenomation.

Aside from most snakes not doing well after surgery, what other faults can you pick with a guy like that?

Please don't get me wrong as I'm all for no venomoids, but there can be exceptions right? The rare ones at least.

[Matt]

Vanan,
your correct about the fact that there can be responsible keepers keeping venomoids not for the typically testosterone reasons,

but
i think what the problem is, is that it is both dangerous and disrespectful to the snake
there is no good excuse to alter a snake just for the enjoyment of keepers...there are plenty of cool non venomous out there is someone doesnt want to keep hot.

for me, its an ethical issue (its not rght to do to the snakes, purely for our gratification), and the typical testosterone pumping, bragging reasons are just an additional pi$$ off.

just my opinon, i feel strongly about venomoids (as do many others here)

[Scales Zoo]

SCALES Zoo collection of reptiles is entirely non-venomous by choice. We live and work in prairie rattler territory, and respect them while in their area.
Venomoids were not ever considered, as it is our belief that by removing the venom glands, you ultimately compromise the snake by interfering with the capability of it delivering the venom as a primary digestive agent (correct me if I am wrong, but is venom not only intended to immobilize the prey, but to break down tissue for digestion?)
Shame on the vet or butcher who would do this to a snake...we have a rescue boa that was bitten in the face by a live hamster, he required $1000 worth of facial surgery to repair the damage, and I would not wish this trauma on any healthy animal for the convenience of the keeper.

We meet kids at our educational shows who are disappointed that we do not have rattlesnakes and king cobras on display. They also think it would be "COOL" to have a cobra or viper. I tell them that I think those are really nice cars, if I had one I would keep it in the garage. I wish people looking for a testosterone/adrenaline rush would go buy a parachute and jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
We are in no way against the keeping of venomous snakes, we just choose not to. They are some of the most magnificent specimens, and we are fortunate to have some very well informed experienced keepers who will display them in their facilities and assume the responsibility, and unfortunately, sometimes the consequences.
We try to remind the kids who say "I plan to be careful" that most fatal bites were not a result of carelessness, and that if they are absolutely sure that they want to work with venomous snakes, to do good in school and pursue a medical career in toxicology. Find a mentor, a good one, and try to graduate at the top of your class.

[Gregg M]

Vanan,
I kind of understant what you are trying to say, but, like you said most snakes do not do well after and more than a few die...... Where is the good reasoning in that??? Not to mention the pain the snake must suffer after the operation with no type of pain relief offered like you and I would get after something like that.... And the majority of people who get venomoids are people that are unskilled and want to have a "pet" gaboon viper or cobra...... This is where the trouble starts..... Sometimes the snake you thought was venomoid is actually hot or may become hot again...... Now you can just imagine what will follow...... If you are going to take all the precausions that you would take if it were hot, why get a venomoid???? To reduce the risk of a bite???? That is what they make handling tools and lockable cages for...... I have a close friend that has a venomoid king cobra...... It was taken from a person that had no business keeping such an awsome animal....... The person it was taken from was not permitted and the snake was just about dead because it was not being cared for the way it should be because the keeper was unskilled and had no idea how to keep such an animal..... So not only are the operations killing these beautiful snakes but so are the meatheads buying them...... I would not turn one down if it were offered to me for nothing but I will also never be supporter of this butchering and I would also never resell it as a venomoid....... All animale need to be cared for and treated with respect no matter how deformed and ripped up it is But it should never happen in the first place......

[BurmBaroness]

I totally agree, and beilieve that BW's quote says it all.....If you have to get a venomoid, don't get a hot, get a cornsnake. It's out and out cruelty to animals to devenom a snake, as well as unhealthy, unethical, and it's done for $$ or "coolness". I would like to see that list of boycotted breeders, BW. I don't want to support them either.

[Ed_r]

Couldn't agree more!!!. I too would Love to see a list of void producers and those supporting it. I don't support too many stores or breeders, usually everything i get is private party. Would be good info though.

Vanan, I too understand what your trying to say, but even though you don't see it your still looking at this as"I want a cobra, but I don't want to die" That is totally understandable. Believe me I would Love to go in my basement everyday and see an incredible Black Pakistan Cobra looking at me every day. But I have small kids and I also have to be around for them to grow up. Some realities outwiegh the risk. I've only been bitten a couple times in all my time keeping herps, but if those hapen to have been hots I wouldn't be here. And to alter an animal for MY gratification is wrong. I'm even against neutering a dog or cat. if you can't take the animal as it is, then you probably shouldnt have it.

[BWSmith]

correct me if I am wrong, but is venom not only intended to immobilize the prey, but to break down tissue for digestion?)

The jury is still out on this matter when it comes to voids. YES. Most venoms are designed to not only keill a prey item, but to begin the digestion process. But, by the same token, I feed F/T rodents to 90% of my hots. Most just crawl over and eat it, no envenomation, or so it looks to me. So you can see how this is a grey area.

I happen to be at a buddy's shop when a mother brought in her 12 year old son's pet copperhead. "He said it had it's poison thingies removed, can you check it for me?" Quick pin and fangs over the edge of a glass and venom sprayed everywhere. Needless to say, the copper stayed with us. Just a random story.

Another reason I hear for keeping a void is education. I personally do not see this as viable. Even if the circumstances arrise that ane ducational show needs a cobra, mamba, or exotic viper, why in the world would you ever take it out of the cage? I do alot of venomous education, got 9 in 3 days later this month, and I have only had one program where the snakes came out. And that one was in an ampetheater type setting.

[ETET]

I saw that in the OTHER site that someone want a venomoid gaboon. I think this kind of people totally don't know what they are doing, also those people selling void do the same thing. I think people get use to alter any animal for their own desire, they never respect the integrity of nature. This is very bad for the animals and also for our herp keeper. Just recently, a guy without any hot experience got a void egyptian cobra, he kept saying how easy to handle this snake and asked my friend to get one too. They think they have a gun without bullets! Is that you BW mentioned before?: People want void like a porsche without an engine, I think these people like start learn driving, but they don't know they are driving a corolla with an engine of a twin-turbo porsche. Accident just wait to happen!

The demand for void for education/zoo is still not justified. If the animal is altered, the animal is not as nature as it use to be, what kind of info people can leran from a mutiliated animal? If a snake can devenom, then all lions, tigers....should all declawed.

In fact this void business will still exist as long as there is a demand. Let a list of those dealers go public is a good idea, also education of public is very important. I think in recent years hot reptile business grow much much beyond people's knowledge and education. Many exotic species around the world is available now but sometimes people don't know much or how deadly are them before they buy them. Just another thought...



ETET

[BWSmith]

Actually i said a Venomoid is like a Proshe with no Engine, serves no purpose and just to show off I like analogies.