Advice for Day and Night Bulbs

Dmurphy95 · 04-09-17, 12:21 PM

Hello everyone! I would like imput on a slight decision problem I am having.

Once Qizil, my/My Dad's Red Tailed Boa get's his new cage and is moved into said new abode I will be fitting his old cage for my own little Rosy Boa I will be getting.

I do understand that for the most part it does not seem like they really need a basking light and are more attuned to UTH's, but I am mainly planning on getting a day and light bulb to keep a more "normal" day and night cycle for my little baby.

I am not sure if I should really go for the day/night cycle bulbs, or if I should instead stick with a UTH and instead go for a simple UBV Flourescent Bulb fixture for viewing purposes. Any imput?

And for that matter, what types of bulbs/wattage should I aim for if I am to get the day/night cycle bulbs? Most of the heating will come from the UTH if I am correct.

dannybgoode · 04-09-17, 12:27 PM

A proper reptile uv bulb in the day yes (like you would use for a lizard). t8 10% would be fine for a rosy boa and it would benefit very much from this.

No light at night.

I would swap the uth for a ceramic heat bulb or che as they're known and then that can stay on 24/7.

Dmurphy95 · 04-09-17, 12:36 PM

Thank you for the help! Though excuse the silly question, but: What does the "t8 10%" mean exactly? I am not very well-versed in this. I am learning more and more about these things as I go, and don't know all the technicalities yet.

Would it be better not to use the UTH because they like to burrow, and it could get too hot..? Hence using the heat bulb instead? I simply want to make sure I am doing the best I can for my Rosy, so excuse all the questions. X'D

TRD · 04-09-17, 12:48 PM

Not aware Rosy would need UVB...?

Dmurphy95 · 04-09-17, 12:51 PM

I've researched a lot on the subject, since it's the biggest "problem" I really seem to be having, but I never found anything that really went into specifics. Usually I saw they would need UTHs but I am not so sure.

I am quite sure they do, but again I am not sure if I should go for the Flourescent Bulb fictures or a day-and-night cyle.
I just don't want to overdo the heating of the tank.

dannybgoode · 04-09-17, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRD

Not aware Rosy would need UVB...?

*All* snakes benefit hugely from uv. I won't keep any snake without it now. Even my C paulsoni in her foot cube Viv has a nano uv set up and she spends days at a time under it.

Even snakes like my boa imperator-supposedly nocturnal-spends a few hours a day basking under it whereas she just hid under normal lighting.

Their colour improves, they are more active and there's plenty of research to show they are healthier too with a stronger immune system etc.

Of course I still provide plenty of hiding places (in fact I provide more hiding / shaded places than before) but then the snake is free to choose and will regulate its uv exposure much like they thermoregulate their temperature.

TRD · 04-09-17, 02:02 PM

Well... hugely may be a bit overstated since people have been keeping snakes without UV for decades or more, reaching good age and under good health, apparently without adverse effects... I would be interested in any scientific document describing the benefits of providing UV while the animal itself doesn't require it for metabolic processes. I know only of adding light UV to plant lighting which makes the leaves more appealing green, but doesn't do anything else for the plant. Human skin also tans due to UV. Obviously it would also cause a reaction to reptile skin since too much UVB is harmful and needs to be blocked (ie- pigment increases). I'm more interested in the benefits to the immune system of the reptile, or in this case, a snake.

Personally I provide full spectrum light, around 6500 K, and extends somewhat in the UVA range. But I don't provide any UVB to my snakes.

dannybgoode · 04-09-17, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRD

Well... hugely may be a bit overstated since people have been keeping snakes without UV for decades or more, reaching good age and under good health, apparently without adverse effects... I would be interested in any scientific document describing the benefits of providing UV while the animal itself doesn't require it for metabolic processes. I know only of adding light UV to plant lighting which makes the leaves more appealing green, but doesn't do anything else for the plant. Human skin also tans due to UV. Obviously it would also cause a reaction to reptile skin since too much UVB is harmful and needs to be blocked (ie- pigment increases). I'm more interested in the benefits to the immune system of the reptile, or in this case, a snake.

Personally I provide full spectrum light, around 6500 K, and extends somewhat in the UVA range. But I don't provide any UVB to my snakes.

Absolutely essential no, hugely beneficial yes. If you are on facebook I can direct you to a group where there are a whole range of scientific (as in proper peer reviewed science) papers researching the matter.

I have linked to some on here and also if you go to the UV Lighting for Reptiles: How much UVB do reptiles need? site and have a mooch around there are a ton of papers on there as well.

Snakes do use it to metabolise D3 much like we do. Uv is essential for humans too and indeed most terrestrial animals.

As to skin damage - the amount produced by reptile lighting is way way below what they'd be exposed to in the wild and of absolutely no concern.

TRD · 04-09-17, 03:33 PM

That page you linked I happen to know... and some articles that UVB radiation promotes vitamin D3 production in snakes I know too. However there's a ton of info available that while they do react (so to say) to UVB, it's a hard time to prove there's an actual significant benefit for it. Snakes seem to get all they need through their diet, at least in captivity. Stable rodent diet... which contains all if not most of the essentials if fresh enough and from a good vendor.

That's where my main question originates from -- would it add anything to the snake's health, even though all it requires is already provided?

I'm pretty interested in the subject, and have long been contemplating it. I have however not found one single source that really pointed out any benefits to using UVB with snakes besides articles that describe it helps with metabolizing D3 and A. Also all UVB lights provide UVA which helps the vision. Now UVA I provide anyway. UVB if required would mean quite a bit of work since you can't place those lights outside the terra as UVB is blocked by glass 95-100%. Drilling extra holes and all into the metal meshes I don't like, and CFL UVB lights are bad to reptile eyes (too bright)... so it would need to be some T5HO or similar and that's a real pain to put inside of glass terra not made to support it.

dannybgoode · 04-09-17, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRD

That page you linked I happen to know... and some articles that UVB radiation promotes vitamin D3 production in snakes I know too. However there's a ton of info available that while they do react (so to say) to UVB, it's a hard time to prove there's an actual significant benefit for it. Snakes seem to get all they need through their diet, at least in captivity. Stable rodent diet... which contains all if not most of the essentials if fresh enough and from a good vendor.

That's where my main question originates from -- would it add anything to the snake's health, even though all it requires is already provided?

I'm pretty interested in the subject, and have long been contemplating it. I have however not found one single source that really pointed out any benefits to using UVB with snakes besides articles that describe it helps with metabolizing D3 and A. Also all UVB lights provide UVA which helps the vision. Now UVA I provide anyway. UVB if required would mean quite a bit of work since you can't place those lights outside the terra as UVB is blocked by glass 95-100%. Drilling extra holes and all into the metal meshes I don't like, and CFL UVB lights are bad to reptile eyes (too bright)... so it would need to be some T5HO or similar and that's a real pain to put inside of glass terra not made to support it.

I'll dig some papers out. For wooden vivs I put the tubes in the viv. For glass with mesh lids I put a higher powered tube outside the viv. Arcadia for example specifically rate their tubes through mesh.

Bear in mind D3 is very important and it is only properly metabolised through the absorbtion of uvb.

Further anecdotally my snakes all actively bask under uv when they generally hid when just provided with normal lighting which suggests they are seeking it out. They are more active and display much more vibrant colours.

With regards to cfl and eyesight. An early experiment did indeed render all the snakes blind however later testing showed that the bulbs used emitted uvc which is what caused the blindness. Fran makes specific reference to this on the site I linked to. These bulbs are no longer manufactured.

In fact it is this old paper that stopped people using uv for snakes for a long time but then scientists considered the fact that many snake species are found basking in sunlight without going blind so there must be an underlying cause in the tests.

Its also the reason that I only use Arcadia bulbs as under testing they produce the spectrum they claim to whereas repti glo get close to emitting more dangerous wavelengths.

I agree to an extent with you that it is still a contentious issue however I think the science is clear it is beneficial (whilst not essential). I factor in the cost of uv in all my vivs now and given that I'll be up to 10 snakes soon and some of those will need larger set ups in the futures it is a considerable expense but I consider it to as important to a stat and proper heating to ensure the well being of my animals.

Even some reptile stores in the UK now fit uv to their store vivs and shops wouldn't go to the expense of this if there were no benefit.

dannybgoode · 04-10-17, 12:02 AM

I should add as well that the provision of uv is in part due to my keeping philosophy - snakes at least have the option of uvb exposure in the wild and I therefore look to provide that option in captivity.

As I mentioned above it is an option all my snakes take me up on.

TRD · 04-12-17, 05:02 PM

I don't have mesh lids, my tops are glass with a metal mesh that would block a lot of the UV light out. I have planted bio-active arid vivariums for my kingsnakes, basically maintenance free besides watering, and my snakes seem to bask till their heart's content without issues. I even simulate sunrise/sunset events and up till recently I also moved the basking spot during sunrise and sunset to a different place on the vivarium as I found it interesting to see how they bask in a different spot during morning and evening (nice to see them thermoregulating)... I expanded my vivs recently because adding few more snakes so I would need to order a few more timers with ramp up/down programming. I provide them holes to go underground/under rocks just like they would in the wild and simulate the environment as good as possible in a vivarium for a snake that has no issues to trash around from time to time, though I do use some plants that they would never see in the wild simply because, well, I like those plants and they do great in arid terrariums (and can handle a kingsnake's torture).

I'm all for natural setups... I'm one of those guys that despite having a whole bunch of animals (reaching 30, not all reptiles though) I would never go into putting stuff away in rack systems just because its convenient.

dannybgoode · 04-12-17, 11:14 PM

Your set ups sound awesome. I particularly like simulating the movement of the sun through the day. Would love to see pictures.

Also I wasn't questioning your husbandry at all. However in the wild when basking a snake will be receiving uvb and I like to provide this also. My vivs are mainly wooden ones so I mount the tube inside on the ceiling. Given the heat they kick out I mount them at the warm end otherwise there's a danger of the temperature gradient being disturbed.

I've been flat out with work and home stuff but will post some papers on the subject shortly.

akane · 04-14-17, 12:54 AM

A t8 is the tube size of a long fluorescent fixture. It's the most standard size. Sometimes a larger tube is used in long fixtures of 4+ ft and it makes little difference. A t5 tends to actually be a higher output slightly different style used for more efficient lighting in a smaller size. That's basic straight tubes. The percent is a measure of uv. In a long tube 10 is fairly standard for desert application where the reptile would experience a lot of unfiltered light. There are also commonly 5 uv rated bulbs. There are also screw in narrower beam uv basking bulbs instead that are usually also used as hot spots more for lizards instead of the standard incandescent bulbs for some fixtures that provide heat. You should check the distance suggestions listed for a uv bulb. Rosy tanks tend to be fairly low so you will have a fairly strong effect of light, heat, or uv from any bulb. Uv is not necessary but you can use it as your viewing bulb. I haven't looked up snake benefits but they would be exposed in the wild normally.

I just use an undercabinet lighting fixture cause they are dirt cheap and work for small purposes with daylight bulb from the hardware store so usually your standard t8 tube to maintain day and night for my rosy boas and an infrared heat bulb at all times about 40w on one end. They tend not to be very shy or light sensitive but of course provide hides and optional shelter.

Dmurphy95 · 04-14-17, 12:24 PM

This whole conversation got a lot more in-depth than I was expecting, but the stuff I learned from reading your posts was quite insightful and interesting honestly!

Thank you all for your imput!
I am thinking of getting a screw-in UV bulb as the day bulb after reading everything through, as I do want to give them as "natural" a feel as possible. I am getting a stand for it as well so it isn't sitting too close to the enclosure and slamming own with too much exposure. Even if they are burrowers, I just want to go with an air of caution as either way UV bulbs are pretty gnarly from what I've read. XD

Also, anake thank you for explaining what those were! I am still learning all the terms and there's so many it is quite confusing. So thanks a bunch for the explanation!