Woma python is corkscrewing

GyGbeetle · 12-28-16, 12:05 PM

I had a question for anyone that has experience either with womas or any Python in general. Starting Christmas Eve day, my woma Charlotte started corkscrewing. Now I know what everyone is going to jump to; IBD. However, the symptoms don't match. Here's a brief history of Charlotte: we bought her at a trade show a little over a month ago from a vendor who we've bought 5 other boas from over the course of 6 months. Charlotte was there on every visit, and I spent time with her on a couple of these visits. So I'm confident she was healthy when I brought her home.

so the incident: about 2 weeks ago we bought a temp/humidity gauge from the store, that has a velcro adhesive component on the back. Well, day 2 of having said product, Charlotte managed to wrap her whole body over it, and remove the adhesive from the side of her tank (60 gallon glass tank). This was about 3 weeks post purchase. And then she slithered over it. The adhesive stuck to her chin. It stuck pretty good. So good in fact that we brought her back to the store to have them help get it off. With a q-tip and olive oil and some pulling, we all finally got it off. As a precaution, we removed substrate from her tank and didn't feed her for 2 weeks. Replaced forest floor with a towel. She seemed happy. Very energetic. Crazy Charlotte!

second incident: I fed her the usual size rat (small) the day before xmas eve and put the saved substrate back into tank. She ate. She was happy. Crazy but full Charlotte. The next day, we noticed corkscrewing on the head portion of her. No other symptoms. Just the head. She resolves out of it very quickly, but she can't pull herself all the way to the top of her tank since this started. Her head just droops to the side. So we removed (and tossed) her substrate thinking it absorbed some unknown poison. We've quarantined her, and we have been giving her fresh water daily. She's getting better, but not sure what happened and how to get her head motion restored.

any help or ideas on what this might be? If it's a chemical toxin, how do I determine what it was in order to avoid this in the future?

REM955 · 12-28-16, 01:48 PM

Hello.
Not sure if you meant a full corkscrew or just rubbing face into the side of the ground.
Hopefully it is similar or the same as my Woma in the first picture: Cuddles

GyGbeetle · 12-28-16, 02:34 PM

Hi there. Thank you for sharing your post. This is not what Charlotte is doing. She is corkscrewing her neck. If I can figure out how to share videos,
I'll try and post a video.

Albert Clark · 12-29-16, 05:07 AM

Sorry to hear about the corkscrewing. Is there some way you can post a video of it bc the description you are giving doesn't sound like true corkscrewing however womas are prone to wobbles and neurological presentations at times.. Woma and Hgw (hidden gene woma) both are affected. True corkscrewing has various degrees of severity but is usually a very involved neuro episode. Usually brought on by some type of stressful situation. Controlling stress is a doable remedy by keeping husbandry on point, regular feeding of appropriate sized prey. Limiting handling also is a stress reducer for snakes in general.

REM955 · 12-29-16, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GyGbeetle

Hi there. Thank you for sharing your post. This is not what Charlotte is doing. She is corkscrewing her neck. If I can figure out how to share videos,
I'll try and post a video.

Oh well. Was hoping.
You can post to YouTube and copy paste the link into chat. That might be easiest.

Captain837 · 12-29-16, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Sorry to hear about the corkscrewing. Is there some way you can post a video of it bc the description you are giving doesn't sound like true corkscrewing however womas are prone to wobbles and neurological presentations at times.. Woma and Hgw (hidden gene woma) both are affected. True corkscrewing has various degrees of severity but is usually a very involved neuro episode. Usually brought on by some type of stressful situation. Controlling stress is a doable remedy by keeping husbandry on point, regular feeding of appropriate sized prey. Limiting handling also is a stress reducer for snakes in general.

Is the op asking about a woma python or a woma morph ball python? I have never heard of neuro issues in normal woma pythons.

GyGbeetle · 12-29-16, 05:57 PM

This is a Woma Python, not a BP morph. I hope this YouTube link works:

https://youtu.be/RtqOBBzJkts

REM955 · 12-29-16, 06:18 PM

That looks very odd to me. I have very little experience, but comparing it to some other youtube videos, it looks similar to IBD.
In any event, my thoughts would be to quarantine her from the other animals you mentioned and get a vet to look at her and the video.

I hope others have better advice than what I said.

I saw at the end she appeared to continue as normal. Is that what happened?

GyGbeetle · 12-29-16, 09:49 PM

REM955: I already had a vet look at the video and his first assessment was some sort of toxic exposure. To what I have no idea. The second she became symptomatic she was put into quarantine, and no other boid in the collection is showing signs of anything.

And yes, she will resolve to normal movement. In fact, she's been steadily improving since this all started. IBD cases typically decline quickly once the corkscrewing begins, although I've heard some cases of boas lasting over a year with this symptom.

I'd like to mention that she has had 2 very nice looking bowel movements since she ate on Friday, all while this has be going on. She's lucid, she's active, and she has no other symptoms. Her mouth is clean. Her tank is well heated. I don't get it at all

REM955 · 12-29-16, 10:28 PM

Well, from what I understand is that:
IBD may come from a virus or other pathogen.
IBD causes death by starvation.

This is only from superficial reading, but honestly I'd just keep her quarantined. It is not something I would consider risking the other animals that you have. I know I also read something a ways back that suggested that pythons, not boids, could live on with it. But I am reaching out of my depths here. These are only things that I would consider doing now until better advice comes along.

**Andy_G** · 12-30-16, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REM955

Well, from what I understand is that:
IBD may come from a virus or other pathogen.
IBD causes death by starvation.

This is only from superficial reading, but honestly I'd just keep her quarantined. It is not something I would consider risking the other animals that you have. I know I also read something a ways back that suggested that pythons, not boids, could live on with it. But I am reaching out of my depths here. These are only things that I would consider doing now until better advice comes along.

-IBD is a retrovirus
-Both boas and pythons are boids
-IBD is most commonly found in boa constrictors and the onset of symptoms in boas can be lengthy, while in pythons the snakes die quickly with it
-Snakes with IBD often begin with mild stargazing and chronic regurgitation,

MANY other things can cause this corkscrewing. Some of the more common ones are: exposure to a toxic substance (bleach, vapona, some other concentrate used for cleaning or mite treatment), incorrect dosage/administration of prescribed antibiotics, trauma, exposure to heat without an escape causing heat stroke, as well as congenital/genetic defects. The fact that the OP's snake can right itself otherwise and doesn't appear contorted would suggest to me that IBD is not the cause of this behaviour. As far as identifying the cause...have there been any changes to how you clean or keep him? When did you notice it? What are you using to clean and what is your method?

REM955 · 12-30-16, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy_G

-IBD is a retrovirus
-Both boas and pythons are boids
-IBD is most commonly found in boa constrictors and the onset of symptoms in boas can be lengthy, while in pythons the snakes die quickly with it
-Snakes with IBD often begin with mild stargazing and chronic regurgitation,

Thank you for correcting me.

GyGbeetle · 12-30-16, 01:13 PM

Andy: Charlotte had trauma to her neck while we tried to get adhesive off of her. She didn't have any corkscrewing until I first fed her after 2 weeks of keeping her off feed. My first inclination was that the rat she ate exacerbated some bruising in her neck that hadn't quite healed yet. Nothing else seems to fit. She hasn't been exposed to any toxins (we have all the snakes housed in the same room, separate enclosures. So any new toxin I would think would cause a similar reaction to at least one more snake). Husbandry hasn't changed. In fact she was thriving previous to her corkscrewing; she's equally still thriving and can now pull herself up to the top of the tank again without flopping her head over.

The reason I'm asking about the toxin exposure is because I don't know where the source is, so I can't prevent it from happening again, or keep her away from exposure now to allow her to improve. Is it possible then if this is just that neck trauma? Upon advice from a vet, we're going to feed her on her proper schedule, which would be today (Friday) on a small rat (her usual size). We'll see what happens

GyGbeetle · 12-30-16, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy_G

-IBD is a retrovirus
As far as identifying the cause...have there been any changes to how you clean or keep him? When did you notice it? What are you using to clean and what is your method?

ok, we haven't changed anything. here's the series of events prior to the corkscrewing:

We had a temp/humidity gauge in her tank, with a velcro adhesive backing. She managed to wrap her body around the gauge, and remove the velcro from the glass it was adhered to on the tank. and then slithered over the adhesive side, causing it to get stuck underneath her chin.

We tried mineral oil and rubbing the oil into the adhesive to remove it. We had no luck. So we brought her back to the store where we purchased her from (we've become friends with most of the folks there, including the owner and the store manager). They put some olive oil and used a q-tip with some pressure, and finally removed the adhesive tape after about 30 minutes of gently pulling. some of her scales came off, and it's a bit abrasive around that area.

As a precaution, we removed all of her substrate (forest floor), put in a bathing towel, and took her off feed for about 2 weeks. Just 2 days shy of those 2 weeks, we put the saved forest floor substrate back into her tank, and fed her the usual small rat. We saved the forest floor substrate in a storage bin we sometimes use to house snakes during transport, or feed on rare occasions. so we wash the tub down with soapy water, and sometimes use a paper towel with hand sanitizer on it.

Once the substrate was replaced back in the tank, we watered down the substrate, and then fed her the small rat. That was in the evening of Friday.

Saturday around 2 is when my husband noticed the weird movements. We immediately removed her from the snake room, in case it was IBD or any other contagion. We have 2 retics, 2 burmese, and 6 columbian red tails in the same room with our woma, so all boids.

After removing her from the room, and consulting more with the store manager, who felt it might also be a toxin exposure, we removed (and tossed) the substrate, put in another clean bathing towel, and have literally been on snake watch ever since.

Every day, her movements improve. At the beginning of all of this, she would try and lift her head and corkscrew back. Then she would pull her body up a little, and her head would flop and she would corkscrew back. today, she managed to pull herself to the top of the tank, and just sit there, before slowly coming down to the bottom, with no corkscrewing at all. But then she tries to navigate her way around the water dish, flops upside down, and rotates her body, before straightening it.

Right now, she is periscoping while we defrost her rat just above her tank. Like normal. so, I don't know. If it's a toxin, how in the world can we determine what toxin it was so we can prevent her from ever getting sick like this?

We have a vet appointment with a really good vet, pretty well-known in the state we live in. Only problem is that he's only in the hospital about 2-3 times/month. but with her improving, I don't think it's terrible to wait for a good vet. He works directly with the pet store we purchased her from as well.

Ok, sorry for the dissertation. I'm just really worried about my baby. she was my birthday purchase, and even though she's aloof, I still love her.

**Andy_G** · 12-30-16, 01:37 PM

It could even be some kind of reaction to the adhesive that may have been absorbed through her skin...which I doubt...but very hard to know. The kind of trauma that causes this usually has to affect the nervous system in some way, and adhesion as you describe would be superficial with perhaps some peripheral localized bruising.

I had one snake do this, a boa constrictor (one of my first) in the late 90's...she ended up having leukemia and was euthanized. I am sure it's very hard for you, but be patient, keep her in quarantine in a simple cage with paper towel as substrate, and keep an eye out. Keep handling to a minimum, and feed as normal. It's really all you can do until a professional can intervene with further advice.

Just making doubly sure here...you don't have no-pest strips/vapona around them at all, do you?

Never apologize for going into detail...it's what we need in order to try and help!