New baby ribbon

Doug 351 · 05-01-16, 10:10 AM

Out at my pond the other day, I saw about an inch and a half of tail slithering into the rocks and vegetation and thought it was possibly a ribbon....I went after it digging in the vegetation and moving rocks but never coming across anything.

The next day , while pulling weeds I spotted him trying to make his way back to the pond...(very quickly, lol) but he was next to a stone wall on a stone path so...he was limited in where he could go. Even though he was weaving through a pile of pulled weeds, I managed to grab it.

I think it's red-striped ribbon. It's a little baby with a big attitude as he likes to strike and try his best to chew on my fingers! !!

It's not the best pic...but the little circle under him is a quarter for scale.

Albert Clark · 05-01-16, 11:26 AM

Nice find! T.sauritus is a very nervous and flighty species that dont take kindly to handling. Especially after being born free and living free. They need a few hides to feel secure. They also are listed as endangered in some states and or threatened.

Doug 351 · 05-02-16, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Nice find! T.sauritus is a very nervous and flighty species that dont take kindly to handling. Especially after being born free and living free. They need a few hides to feel secure. They also are listed as endangered in some states and or threatened.

Yeah...I haven't handled him too much ...and he did spend the night and half a day in that critter keeper empty....Now he has a rock, substrate, a water bowl, and a hide, and he seems much calmer. Plus his enclosure is bigger...now I've got to figure out how to feed him.

I guess I'll start with tadpoles...(it's just they are so tiny....even for him)...maybe a small mosquito fish to see if he'll take it as well. Hopefully, he'll take to eating fish. I mean, the pond is full of tadpoles right now, but they are tiny toadpoles! Soon there will be some baby toads....but I like baby toads!!!!!

If I can get him on fish...as he gets bigger I can just get them from PetSmart..and when he gets bigger maybe even switch to a rodent diet.

Albert Clark · 05-02-16, 03:06 AM

Cool but i would steer clear of the tadpoles and frogs bc of the parasite loads. Even though he is already filled with parasites as are most wild snakes. You can scent his food with fish live fish, (guppies or minnows) or even fresh fish. The best nutrition will be getting him on a rodent based diet which can also be scented with fish. T. sauritus love frogs and fish. Cut up nightcrawler is another feeding option. Even f/t smelt is a good safe option.

**Andy_G** · 05-02-16, 05:03 PM

This thread makes me think of something that doesn't happen up here in Canada...at least not often.

Why is the catching and keeping of wild reptiles and amphibians so prevalent in the U.S.? Why would someone want to catch and keep a species which is threatened/endangered/protected in some states and why is it being encouraged in this case specifically? It certainly can't aid conservation efforts, which is why so many claim to buy CB/CBB in the first place. Is this species one that is not commonly available in the pet trade there? We aren't allowed to keep native species without a permit up here and we can't have taken a wild specimen, so maybe that has a lot to do with why I feel like I am missing something? Can someone rationalize this a bit for me? :/

LespaceSerpent · 05-02-16, 05:14 PM

I don't think catching of endangered species would be encouraged if it were endangered in that particular area as it varies. Not that they are anywhere but as an example moose wouldn't be considered endangered on the lower 48 because it isn't their ideal habitat, but if there were few moose in Alaska it'd be considered endangered. And there are many species which are not regularly captive bred bit are still plentiful in numbers wild. I mean I have a lot of fun catching bullfrog and Leopard frogs in my area in the summer and have kept them for a night occasionally. It's kind of like finding a really pretty snake in a store or event but instead it's in your own backyard!

And there are certain species/animals who do require permits to catch/own depending on how many there are, how dangerous they are, and the care needed for them, among a ton of other factors I'm sure

**Andy_G** · 05-02-16, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LespaceSerpent

I don't think catching of endangered species would be encouraged if it were endangered in that particular area as it varies. Not that they are anywhere but as an example moose wouldn't be considered endangered on the lower 48 because it isn't their ideal habitat, but if there were few moose in Alaska it'd be considered endangered. And there are many species which are not regularly captive bred bit are still plentiful in numbers wild. I mean I have a lot of fun catching bullfrog and Leopard frogs in my area in the summer and have kept them for a night occasionally. It's kind of like finding a really pretty snake in a store or event but instead it's in your own backyard!

And there are certain species/animals who do require permits to catch/own depending on how many there are, how dangerous they are, and the care needed for them, among a ton of other factors I'm sure

We've all caught frogs, toads, bullfrogs, snakes, and so on, to look at and admire and maybe even keep them for a day or two, especially as kids! I think that's a bit different from catching and keeping something. The "there will always be more" way of thinking is certainly very finite and many animals have become extinct or extirpated from certain areas because of it...not just talkin' herps and no, this one instance won't be a great detriment to captive populations. Really am trying to wrap my head around it here still.

I also get the fact that some species are more prevalent in the wild and not as common in captivity, but surely someone breeds ribbon snakes in the U.S.? These aren't a coveted exotic species with an extremely limited amount floating around in captivity that we are talking about.

Tiny Boidae · 05-02-16, 06:01 PM

I found two ads on Kingsnake.com for ribbon snakes, although you'd probably get dozens of results by doing a google search. They're not extremely common, but they're not impossible to find either. There's a lot of hot topics in the hobby I'm more impartial to, but I'm against taking wildlife from nature when there's some to be found in captivity. Ribbon snakes don't make good pets anyways.

I'd recommend releasing that poor guy and purchasing a captive one, but researching ribbon snakes more thoroughly. They're not impossible to keep for a beginner, but their diets are much more specialized around fish than a garter snake, and typically they'll turn their noses up at earthworms. Some people have had luck getting them to eat scented pinkies, but from what I've read it's the exception rather than the rule.

Also do note that there are different kinds of ribbon snakes, and each are known to be polar opposites behavior wise. Most commonly are the Western Ribbon Snake, which is extremely timid and defensive, while the Eastern Ribbon Snake is known to be a little more laid back. Google both to try and determine what you have, as that will be the best bet for you.

More over, I didn't read anything about a heating element. These snakes don't need it super hot, but a little warmer than the average home if they're to thrive.

What you can mainly take away from this post is two points: do your own research, thoroughly, and then consider releasing this guy back into the wild in favor of a captive individual.

FWK · 05-02-16, 10:55 PM

Hello Doug, that's a good looking little critter you have there. While I completely agree with the others that releasing this animal and buying a captive bred specimen would be in the best interest of all involved, if you are willing and capable of taking on the challenges that come along with keeping a field collected snake by all means go for it. Legality has been mentioned, and the possibility of this being a protected species was brought up as well. You said you believe it to be a Redstripe Ribbon Snake (Thamnophis proximus rubrilineatus). Redstripe Ribbon Snakes are endemic to Texas and on the white list under Western Ribbon Snake, Thamnophis proximus. They are legal to collect from private property with a valid hunting license. If you are not in Texas, let us know your location so we can properly ID the snake and check into your local laws.

I have a field collected Western Ribbon Snake (Gulf Coast Ribbon specifically, T. p. orarius) and if your critter is anything like mine, you're in for a ride just to get it to eat. If you're not willing to go to extremes to get it eating, do yourself (and the snake) a favor and just let it go. Some field collected snakes adapt to captivity easily (most Rat and King Snakes, for example), but Ribbons can be a challenge.

Albert Clark · 05-03-16, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy_G

This thread makes me think of something that doesn't happen up here in Canada...at least not often.

Why is the catching and keeping of wild reptiles and amphibians so prevalent in the U.S.? Why would someone want to catch and keep a species which is threatened/endangered/protected in some states and why is it being encouraged in this case specifically? It certainly can't aid conservation efforts, which is why so many claim to buy CB/CBB in the first place. Is this species one that is not commonly available in the pet trade there? We aren't allowed to keep native species without a permit up here and we can't have taken a wild specimen, so maybe that has a lot to do with why I feel like I am missing something? Can someone rationalize this a bit for me? :/

It's frowned upon here in the states also to keep native species, threatened or endangered species as well. My intent was not condoning the keeping or believing that keeping a animal that is a legal risk to be ok for Doug. That is why one of my initial statements was how difficult it would be to keep a t.sauritus in captivity especially one that was "born free and living free". We have a lot of avid field herpers here in the US and some are privy to the existing laws and some aren't. I mentioned to Doug the animal is listed as threatened in some states and endangered in others. Listen, people make their own decisions. We put the info out there but the final decision is with the individual. He never said how long he was intending to keep the animal so I just imparted the information I had and left it at that. So, I also gave the info on captive care as I saw it.

macandchz · 05-03-16, 08:09 AM

just a thought.. this little guy had a pond, the right things to eat that he survived thus far, maybe he should be returned to where he was living and doug go to a petco and pick up a snake that really could use some TLC.

**Andy_G** · 05-03-16, 08:25 AM

Interesting feedback so far. This is the 7th or 8th instance this past week (since April 24th) alone that I have seen someone catching and intending to keep what they found all in the USA so that's really what stimulated my interest on the subject.

Lots of food for thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

It's frowned upon here in the states also to keep native species, threatened or endangered species as well. My intent was not condoning the keeping or believing that keeping a animal that is a legal risk to be ok for Doug. That is why one of my initial statements was how difficult it would be to keep a t.sauritus in captivity especially one that was "born free and living free". We have a lot of avid field herpers here in the US and some are privy to the existing laws and some aren't. I mentioned to Doug the animal is listed as threatened in some states and endangered in others. Listen, people make their own decisions. We put the info out there but the final decision is with the individual. He never said how long he was intending to keep the animal so I just imparted the information I had and left it at that. So, I also gave the info on captive care as I saw it.

Definitely didn't seem that way. If you're offering captive husbandry information coupled with something that could be regarded or interpreted as handling advice, instead of discouraging the thought of keeping it outright which both Tiny Boidae and FWK both hinted much more heavily at, one could argue that your intentions are not as clear as you may want them to be. Better to be blunt instead of being misinterpreted I think. That's what I usually do and it's seen as being difficult or arguing or perhaps that I am even a bit of an ***, but I would truly prefer that. At least it gets the point across and nobody will get b.s. or miss the point, whether they like it or not. Post in a public forum and there's bound to be people that won't agree. Gotta keep it real, just like Oprah.

The OP also mentioned future enclosures and what to feed it when it gets larger...pretty fair guess that his intent is to keep it for a while.

Doug 351 · 05-03-16, 10:08 AM

First off...I said I "think" it's a red-striped, it's possible that it's a Western...it just looked pretty red when I caught it. I caught a Western blue out of the same pond a few years ago and kept it for a year before realeasing it in a safer environment. That pond is not safe as it's in close proximity to lawnmowers and uneducated snake haters. It's chance for survival is much better with me. (Provided I can get it to eat. This thing is a baby. It's chance of survival in the wild is not that great.

I just released a full grown rat snake that I kept for a few months. I saved it's life as I intervened as a group of 7 or 8 people were going to kill a "huge Copperhead"! I had it out playing with it the next day and took it back to the house I rescued it from and showed them the viscous snake they were going to kill. It still amazes me how docile that snake was.

I caught a full grown speckled king in my front yard and took it to the nature center where they made a display specimen snake out of it and it was well cared for. Years later, I caught a baby speckled and was going to keep it awhile but it escaped and I never found it.

I've had many wild caught animals over the years and I always take care of them well and usually release them in the area I feel is best for them.

They do sell Western ribbons here, I bought one for my daughter as a pet when she was very young and she loved it. I don't know about red-striped.

As far as pets go....not really my intention necessarily, so I wouldn't want to go out and buy one. I have a pet snake: 'Oscar' a full grown wild caught female Texas rat snake. I know Oscar is funny name for a female, but it was a grumpy baby when I caught it 15 years ago. I didn't know what it was, and anything about how to care for it, so I did research. She's my baby and she's been my ambassador for stopping the senseless killing of these animals in my neighborhood. She's been handled by hundreds of people over the years and hopefully educated them on what they are: beneficial harmless animals. I teased her hard to test her disposition before I handed her over to kids to hold. She hated being tied in knots, but never bit. She did bite me one time when I was doing something else she didn't like....and she just clamped down so lightly she didn't break the skin...(just warning me she'd had enough!)

She did bite the crap out of me awhile back....I was chunking dead mice into her enclosure and was looking at the next mouse (and not her) when I felt her clamp down on my fingers....I had to pry her off me! (She thought she had a mouse and wasn't letting go!)

I have a baby Texas rat snake right now....it's tamed down and eating well...but unless Oscar dies, I'll release it when it gets some size on it or ask the nature center if they need one.

I do have a small heating pad for the cage the ribbon is in.
BTW: Yes...I'm in Texas...native born.

EDIT: One last point: don't be confused....there is a HUGE difference between a person who knows what they are doing keeping one individual and collected large numbers for sale to people who don't from wild populations.

FWK · 05-03-16, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug 351

EDIT: One last point: don't be confused....there is a HUGE difference between a person who knows what they are doing keeping one individual and collected large numbers for sale to people who don't from wild populations.

I agree with this completely, I have no issue with people keeping field collected animals as long as they are collected legally and responsibly. I have a number of field collected critters myself. That said, there is a legal issue in play here. It is illegal to release a captive animal under any circumstances. Once you take an animal home and introduce it to your collection, feed it, etc., you cannot release it (you have probably already passed this point with this animal really). There are reasons wildlife rehabbers have to be licensed. If you keep a wild animal it is your responsibility for the rest of its life. You can't even sell it without a permit (the permit is easy to get though, it's about 60 dollars). You can relocate wild snakes a short distance, again with a valid hunting license and on private property. But it is best not to move them more than a few hundred yards as they tend to have a small home range, and moving them outside of this home range is essentially a death sentence.

As for the specific ID of this animal, Redstripe Ribbon Snakes (Thamnophis proximus rubrilineatus) are only found on the Edwards Plateau in central Texas. If you are anywhere else in Texas it is not a T. p. rubrilineatus, no matter what color the dorsal stripe is.

Doug 351 · 05-03-16, 11:08 AM

BTW: I didn't mention why I was out at the pond that day....I have some lawnmowers that I'm fixing up for resale. I had pushed one next to my shed...(which the possums and coon live under)... and was pulling on the starter cord...priming it, ect. when I saw the back end of a baby snake that had come out of the bottom of that mower heading under that shed. I couldn't reach it before it got under.

So I thought (pretty sure) it was a baby blotched water snake. That's my second least favorite snake in the world. See...I don't want snakes in my pond! It's a goldfish pond and some of those fish are my pets! If I can catch this little guy...he'll be relocated.

My LEAST favorite is the yellow belied watersnake....I despise them! I've relocated a couple, but I'm not above dispatching them if necessary!

I used to be like the average person...afraid of snakes and killing every one I saw. I am now a protector of them and very fond of them....but I'm more fond of my lizards and toads..and even fish....I don't like snakes well enough to let them reduce my toad population. Or even my fish population.....so I'm hunting for this blotched watersnake before it becomes a resident.