Extreme Reaction to Hognose Bite

bigsnakegirl785 · 04-26-16, 01:53 AM

Western Hognose Bite Report by ArachnoWolf on DeviantArt

So the person I got Demigod from recently got a hognose (sometime last year iirc), and she got bit by him through a feeding response bite. Well, what resulted was the most extreme reaction to a hognose bite I've ever seen or heard of.

As the link says, she was bitten on April 14. She is still currently caring for the snake bite, ~2.5 weeks later. What started out as some swelling developed into a humongous blister, which has since drained and a specialist has cut away the dead tissue and she's replacing her bandages cleaning the skin every so often. As far as I know, she still has limited movement in her hand, although a lot more than at the beginning.

Those blisters in the photos are pictures of her arm, just to give you some perspective.

She does have diabetes, which we suspect may be why she's taking so long to recover and why it got so bad. She has also bought a set of gloves and a snake hook in the meantime, and will not be stopping for photos in the future. lol

People talk all the time about treating FWCs as any other hot, but few people talk about hoggies. Instances like these are probably incredibly rare, but it goes to show you what they have the potential to do.

Albert Clark · 04-26-16, 06:14 AM

Thanks bsg ,for the journal case history and the thread ( post) as a whole. Sorry for her ordeal with the hognose snake. That is a very serious reaction to the toxic saliva/ venom. Reptiles magazine talks about the decades of debate on reclassifying the Western hognose as a venomous species. They go on to identify the saliva as a proto- lipase enzyme cocktail. They go on also, to say that the delivery system of the W. Hognose "venom" is a inefficient and primitive delivery system which has kept it off the reclassification list of venomous. Hope she has a speedy, full recovery soon!

**Andy_G** · 04-26-16, 08:01 AM

What are the chances of this being more of a result of infection rather than a reaction to the bite, especially considering that she's a diabetic? Did she let him chew on her for a bit(I see that she did to get the pics, but for how long)? I saw a similar reaction in regards to swelling in the late 90's, but not quite like this, and that snake was allowed to chew for a good two minutes. Nobody should ever let this happen...these guys don't have the dentition to latch on like other species and can be easily removed. A rear fanged colubrid, which make no mistake, are definitely venomous by definition, albeit with a clumsy delivery system and debatable toxicity (which is why people struggle with the classification of the species) is NOT something to let chew on you for the sake of a few pics. As far as FWC being treated as a hot...I won't really get into that one much...but...they really gotta chew too. Nothing wrong with being handy with a hook.

Although it truly bothers me and is totally beyond me as to why your friend would allow that little guy to chew on her, thanks for the interesting post!

Kokorobosoi · 04-26-16, 09:12 AM

Oh wow!

Yeah, I guess now I'm REALLY taking hognose off my I kinda want one list.
I'm allergic to beestings.....and now this has me paranoid!

I hope she heals soon! That is something worthy of that venom er show I saw once.

jossh27 · 04-26-16, 10:05 AM

Just picked one of these guys up. Lol. Fortunately not everyone reacts to a bite like that- i hope I'm one of the fortunate ones

Edit) if bitten how do you get a rear fsnged snake off you without hurting it?

MDT · 04-26-16, 10:28 AM

Allergies have nothing to with envenomation. Two separate and distinct processes.

FWK · 04-26-16, 10:54 AM

First of all, I have zero sympathy for the individual bitten. There is far too much wrong with this scenario, beyond allowing the animal to chew on her or even taking a feeding bite in the first place.

There is absolutely no debate on "reclassifying" any Heterodon species as a venomous species. Heterodon are opisthoglyphous. Period. They are, by definition, a rear fanged colubrid. There is some confusion at the hobbyist level (obviously), but these snakes are harmless to people. Their venom is prey specific and has little effect on mammals. The reaction suffered by this individual has everything to do with her poor physical condition, and her attention seeking behavior, demonstrated by stopping to take a picture (but first, let me take a selfie!) of the snake chewing on her hand, only exacerbated the situation.

**Minkness** · 04-26-16, 11:16 AM

Andy and FWK summed it up pretty nicely

**Andy_G** · 04-26-16, 11:23 AM

Thank you so much for your always valuable insight and information on the matter MDT and FWK! Since I am no herpetologist nor a physician (just an optician and former MLT) my knowledge beyond being a hobbyist and breeder is lacking. This, to my untrained eye really looks like an infection and not much else and the fact that this person is diabetic would make her more susceptible to infections from a relatively superficial wound. You two gentlemen fill those gaps so well between hobbyists and professionals, and I am glad that you are present to weigh in. Also glad im justified in being a bit pissed in regards to why the hell someone would do this. Seems stupid.

chairman · 04-26-16, 11:29 AM

I believe that this case presents a teachable moment. Priority 1 for any snake bite is to safely remove the animal. Leaving any snake in place causes undue stress on the animal and creates an opportunity for significant injury to the snake (abscess due to damaged tooth) or the bite victim. Priorities 2 and 3 involve securing the animal and first aid. Documenting the bite via photography is probably priority 50.

This would apply for any snake, including kingsnakes, who seem to find themselves photographed eating fingers quite frequently.

Hopefully the injured party has as speedy a recovery as possible.

eminart · 04-26-16, 11:33 AM

I think I mentioned this in another thread recently, but I'll tell it again. My daughter just got a pair of hognose for her 11th birthday last month. She's had snakes since she was 6 (with my help and supervision, obviously). We had talked about the fact that hognose possess some mild toxins. And, I thought I'd mentioned not to ever let them hang on if they bit.

Well, I arrived home from work one afternoon and my daughter's whole hand was swelling up from one of the snakes having bitten her only minutes before. Not wanting to hurt the snake, she said she just waited for it to let go, which it didn't do. Apparently it chewed on her for about 5 minutes before she finally gently pried it off.

Now, firstly, this is entirely my fault, and a piss poor job of parenting on my part. I was too flippant about discussing what to do if one of them bit her, and how to avoid getting bitten. But, I also didn't expect quite as much of a reaction. Her hand was very swollen for almost 2 days before it began to go down.

So, they certainly aren't dangerous, but don't let those little suckers hang on if they do bite. And they do have a crazy feeding response.

bigsnakegirl785 · 04-26-16, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy_G

What are the chances of this being more of a result of infection rather than a reaction to the bite, especially considering that she's a diabetic? Did she let him chew on her for a bit(I see that she did to get the pics, but for how long)? I saw a similar reaction in regards to swelling in the late 90's, but not quite like this, and that snake was allowed to chew for a good two minutes. Nobody should ever let this happen...these guys don't have the dentition to latch on like other species and can be easily removed. A rear fanged colubrid, which make no mistake, are definitely venomous by definition, albeit with a clumsy delivery system and debatable toxicity (which is why people struggle with the classification of the species) is NOT something to let chew on you for the sake of a few pics. As far as FWC being treated as a hot...I won't really get into that one much...but...they really gotta chew too. Nothing wrong with being handy with a hook.

Although it truly bothers me and is totally beyond me as to why your friend would allow that little guy to chew on her, thanks for the interesting post!

The doctors there are not exactly venom specialists from what she tells me, so their best guess is that it's the venom itself causing it, but it's possible she got an infection as well. She has had extensive numbing the nerves in her hand and limited movement up until now, which that at least I'd guess is from the venom. She can move her hand, but can't lift up anything remotely heavy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jossh27

Just picked one of these guys up. Lol. Fortunately not everyone reacts to a bite like that- i hope I'm one of the fortunate ones

Edit) if bitten how do you get a rear fsnged snake off you without hurting it?

I would assume just like a non-venomous snake, maybe have some rubbing alcohol or something similarly pungent to encourage them to let go on their own.

The best course of action is simply to practice cancelling cues, which is what she's now doing with the hook and gloves as a secondary measure. This instance was a feeding response bite, so taking measures to be sure the snake doesn't think you're food will go a long way. She just didn't think a bite would get this bad, otherwise she wouldn't have taken time to document it.

I think her actions came from her not expecting the reaction to be so bad, and not realizing how badly her diabetes would affect the healing process. She has definitely learned from the experience, and we figured sharing her story would be a good learning experience for others as well.

SerpentineDream · 04-26-16, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jossh27

Just picked one of these guys up. Lol. Fortunately not everyone reacts to a bite like that- i hope I'm one of the fortunate ones

Edit) if bitten how do you get a rear fsnged snake off you without hurting it?

Gently but firmly push upward on their rostrum (little hog snoot, the prominent scaly protrusion that they burrow with and that gives them their distinctive look). Don't wait. Don't snap a photo of them hanging off your hand. The longer you let them chew on the more venom they can work in.

Hoggies don't bite often, and when they do it's almost always a feeding response. So if you watch your hands at mealtime and don't handle them when your hands smell like food (ANY food, and they *really* dig tuna fish for example. There was someone on this board that got bitten because she had lingering tuna scent on her hands from the day before even after several hand washings) you should be OK.

I do hook Diego to take him out of his cage so I don't accidentally catch him by surprise while he's sleeping or otherwise disinclined to be picked up. I do not wear gloves to hold him, but now I'm wondering if I ought to. It would suck the hard way to find out that I'm sensitive to hognose venom.

**Andy_G** · 04-26-16, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerpentineDream

Gently but firmly push upward on their rostrum (little hog snoot, the prominent scaly protrusion that they burrow with and that gives them their distinctive look). Don't wait. Don't snap a photo of them hanging off your hand. The longer you let them chew on the more venom they can work in.

Hoggies don't bite often, and when they do it's almost always a feeding response. So if you watch your hands at mealtime and don't handle them when your hands smell like food (ANY food, and they *really* dig tuna fish for example. There was someone on this board that got bitten because she had lingering tuna scent on her hands from the day before even after several hand washings) you should be OK.

All of this is correct! The only thing to add is to be careful not to let the snake latch onto the fingers that are pushing on the nose!. They can be very prone to this as a natural response. While digging with their noses, if they feel food against their snout( a toad, for example) they will latch on and begin chewing out of instinct. To add to this a little bit just for fun, sometimes "trouble" feeders or those on a seasonal fast will latch onto a food item that is pushed against this part of their body, especially if you withhold water for a couple of days and the prey item is wet. One of the tricks of the trade that is often overlooked, you could say.