Black rat snake feeding experience

RAD House · 10-27-15, 09:30 AM

I just wanted to recount an experience I had with my luecistic black rat snake, Luna, and maybe get some feed back. Two weeks ago my little girl refused to eat for the first time since I got her three months ago. After the first feed attempt I left her completely alone except to put a mouse in her enclosure or check temps.

Although I messed with the temps a bit they were never too far off at the ground level, the lowest being around 82 and the high being 87 degrees Fahrenheit. I added a humid hide to her enclosure, which she showed no interest in. I even moved her out of my office as I spend quite a bit of time in there and was worried I was stressing her. I tried braining, feeding live, and even other foods like fish. All the efforts were met with non interest.

Besides being a bit skinny for not eating for 20 days she appears to be healthy. Scales look healthy, she is incredibly active, and is passing waste. Her enclosure has a multitude of hides, on both the warm and cool sides. She has plenty of things to climb on and explore.

The only thing I could think of was that here tub may be too short for a species that some consider semi arboreal. Her tub is 24x15x7 inches and she is only about a foot long so there should be plenty of floor space. I have another enclosure that was meant for her when she grew out of her tub, which is 52x16x20 inches. I toyed around moving her into this enclosure from the beginning but as it was so big I thought it might add to her stress.

She is still very young and small so I was quite stressed about her not eating for this long. After this weeks refusal I decided to throw a hail mary and move her into the larger enclosure. After a day of exploring she ate.

There are several factors as to why she may have changed her "attitude". First is that because it is a wood enclosure with a glass front, it may have added a bit more security on the three opaque sides. Second because it is wood which is a good insulator maybe the temps are more stable. I am inclined to believe a third option which is that this species needs to climb and have perches to feel at home. She has done nothing but climb around in the branches since I put her in the enclosure, including sleeping up there.

I just don't see the others being good explanations because if security was an issue she would hide instead of being out and a about a majority of the time. The temp issue I would think would take more than a day to really effect her as temps in the wild are much more variable.

I am just glad she finally ate. What do you all think about this, especially if you have experience with this species? I find it strange that none of the care guides mentioned have a taller tank for this species. In fact most group them with non arboreal rat snakes like bairds and trans-pecos.

Bandit · 10-27-15, 01:34 PM

Honestly, it was probably just coincidence. Going two weeks without eating really isn't anything unheard of for a snake, especially since it is getting later in the year. That being said, if the new enclosure is warmer, she will want to eat more often throughout the winter. But considering the fact that she has never given you problems with feeding, I wouldn't be alarmed about her going off feed (although I'm not sure 20 days is even considered off feed). Some snakes are more prone to going off feed during the winter than others.

It sounds like her old enclosure was fine and you had everything under control. She probably is enjoying the space. Rat snakes are pretty active and curious, so she'll definitely make use of all of the space (as you have seen). I have never really looked into care sheets for Black Rats, but I would assume that they should be given branches to climb on as they will climb in the wild. Maybe they just aren't in the care sheets because they don't need them, but I would still recommend it.

Albert Clark · 10-27-15, 02:06 PM

I agree with Bandit on both of those fronts. 20 days not really being a great amount of time and late in the year also is a possibility. I actually was going to say that she probably just wasn't hungry. I do know Justin Kobylka has attested to the off feeding in ball pythons being attributed to enclosure positioning and location. Don't know if that is similar for rat snakes. Non feeders always stress the owner more than the snake lol. However I feel your concern bc the animal is still young and needs to feed. Lol.

Albert Clark · 10-27-15, 02:09 PM

Glad you got her back on feed! Good luck.

RAD House · 10-27-15, 02:24 PM

You are probably right about it not being that long. Being as she is so young, little thicker than a sharpie marker, and metabolism is crazy fast I was a worried about her. I hear you Albert and I would probably be less worried about a ball python as they are fatties comparatively.

I am not just talking about having a branch to climb on, but having more vertical space than similar rat snakes. I guess what I am getting at is when does a snake become a arboreal snake that necessitates an arboreal setup. Truthfully I don't know if a black rat snake would be happy with the lack of floor space that most full arboreal set ups have either. All I do know is that based on the limited experience I have black rats need larger enclosures than is recommended by most guides.

Bandit · 10-27-15, 04:23 PM

I wouldn't give them a full arboreal set up. If you're going to do one extreme or the other (strictly arboreal or strictly terrestrial), than do a terrestrial tank. However for Black Rats I would recommend a good compromise. I'd venture to say that they need adequate floor space, but they don't need vertical space...but I believe it is beneficial and they do enjoy it.

Give her the recommended floor space (or more if you can and want to). Right now she will only climb so much since she is small. When she gets older I'd personally give her 3-4' of vertical space with some good limbs to climb on. But then again I've always been one to give more space than "the minimum."

RAD House · 03-01-16, 01:56 PM

A little update on this girl. Ever since this first experience she has become a pretty unreliable eater. As some of you may remember I took a two week vacation a few months back and prior to me leaving she had not eaten for a month and only sparingly for a month before that. Looking at her before I left she looked skinny to the point that I was worried if she would make it during my away time. So I finally broke down and force fed her pinky parts twice before I left. I also dusted the parts with nutribac just to help out. Fortunately when I got back she was still kicking, but I did notice some off colored brown scales on her belly and around her mouth, she is a white snake so they stuck out like a sore thumb. I started to soak her is a dilute iodine solution, which seems to have helped as they have all gone away. Something odd since I got back from the trip is that I can get her to feed but only by getting her in defensive strike mode and keeping at her until after many strikes she gingerly latches on. It is not hard to get her to strike as she has always had a bit of an attitude. After she latches on if she is disturbed at all before the mouse is down the hatch she will spit it out. This is just some strange behavior and I was wondering if any one has had a similar situation.

**Andy_G** · 03-01-16, 02:00 PM

How large/old is she and how large is the enclosure?

RAD House · 03-01-16, 02:10 PM

She is currently under weight at 25g and about 18 inches long. Her enclosure is quite big around 48"x18"x16" I think, but there is copious amounts of cover. I had her in a small enclosure when this all started and could not get her eat at all, since I moved her over she eats at least sporadically. She is an active snake and loves the room she has now.

Bandit · 03-01-16, 02:21 PM

Have you tried feeding her in a separate tank? If you haven't already, I would try putting her in a small Tupperware container with the mouse in the dark and leave her for a little while.

RAD House · 03-01-16, 03:01 PM

Tried Tupperware out of her enclosure overnight and Tupperware inside her enclosure overnight. Her only interest seems to be in getting out of the Tupperware. I have tried scenting, feeding live, smaller mice. The only thing that seems to work is the weird dance I described earlier. I have not tried feeding or scenting with anoles but if I get her to eat then I will avoid this.

**Andy_G** · 03-01-16, 03:09 PM

Seperate feeding enclosures are often more stressful for the snake and increases the chances of a regurge on the "return flight" if they do in fact eat...but it was worth a shot to try! Have you tried mice as well as rats or rat scented? I know you mentioned you tried scenting but I didn't want to assume...

Bandit · 03-01-16, 03:23 PM

Yeah I know separate enclosures can be stressful, but if nothing else was working it would be worth a shot. But I guess she wasn't having any of that.

RAD House · 03-01-16, 03:48 PM

Sorry I meant scenting f/t with live mice. I certainly could try scenting mice with rats, but I am pretty sure she is still too small to take any shots at even a pinky rat.

**Andy_G** · 03-01-16, 03:53 PM

It's worth a shot. I'd also try scenting with chicken, chicken broth, as well as tuna. They're long shots, but they have worked in this species as well as others before. I would try them in that order as well, beginning with rat scent, and as I am sure you already know, be sure not to try too often as it will create a negative outcome rather than a positive one. I hope you get the little one eating regularly soon, as it's always much more of a concern when they're underweight. I'm not convinced that the larger enclosure is doing any good, but it's your snake and you seem to have a great head on your shoulders, plus you mentioned that you tried a smaller enclosure already so I won't emphasize on that...but don't completely rule it out.