nelson x honduran cross??

[snakekid6996]

I just got a male albino nelson milk yesterday and I have a guy trying to sell me a female albino Honduran milk. I'm curious as if too it is possible to breed them and have nelsonxhonduran albinos? I've herd of pueblan x nelson crosses but never nelson honduran

[Jim Smith]

While it is probably possible to cross breed these two species, it is generally not considered a good thing to do as it really "muddies" up the hobby of keeping milk snakes. The offspring quite often end up being sold as one or the other species depending on what they most resemble, further messing up the geneology of these two beautiful and different species. I would strongly urge you to let this one pass and wait for a beautiful Nelson's to become available. The offspring will be more desirable and you will be able to sell them quicker and for more money. Food for thought...

[SnoopySnake]

Originally Posted by Jim Smith

While it is probably possible to cross breed these two species, it is generally not considered a good thing to do as it really "muddies" up the hobby of keeping milk snakes. The offspring quite often end up being sold as one or the other species depending on what they most resemble, further messing up the geneology of these two beautiful and different species. I would strongly urge you to let this one pass and wait for a beautiful Nelson's to become available. The offspring will be more desirable and you will be able to sell them quicker and for more money. Food for thought...

I agree. You can never know what the babies might get resold as.

[snakekid6996]

Originally Posted by Jim Smith

While it is probably possible to cross breed these two species, it is generally not considered a good thing to do as it really "muddies" up the hobby of keeping milk snakes. The offspring quite often end up being sold as one or the other species depending on what they most resemble, further messing up the geneology of these two beautiful and different species. I would strongly urge you to let this one pass and wait for a beautiful Nelson's to become available. The offspring will be more desirable and you will be able to sell them quicker and for more money. Food for thought...

I can see where Your comming from, but I personally like hybrids. I'm not doing this for the money, I'm doing it for self enjoyment and the enjoyment of others. I do want to make money off breeding, but at this point I'm only looking to make enough to where the snakes pay for themselves so I can expand my collection as a hobbiest with these gorgeous creatures. I would definitely make sure to label them as hybrids and make it clear. Then again, I'm still debating it, because I know I can't be sure that someone won't buy a hybrid off me then sell it to someone else as a purebred just to make more money, and that wouldn't be good. :/ just sucks that not everyone can be trusted to care for the hobby and others wishes.

[Jim Smith]

Clearly you understand the potential downside of making a cross like this. Consider how you'd feel if you unknowingly purchased one of these hybrids for a breeding program and ended up "polluting" an otherwise clean bloodline. If you want to create hybrids, perhaps breed back to a species that is not quite so close as a Honduran like one of the king snakes. The offspring should be recognizable as hybrids at least by an experienced herper which minimizes the likelihood of creating future problems for the hobby. Just a thought...

[prairiepanda]

The biggest issue with this pairing is that the offspring wouldn't look special, and the offspring could probably be mistaken for pure even by experienced breeders. I don't mind hybridization when it's easy to tell you're looking at a hybrid, but cases like this seem like a bad idea. Find yourself a nice Nelson female instead

[snakekid6996]

My biggest question is if they are really that close, that even professionals couldn't tell the difference, then why would it matter so much? How would it "dirty" the bloodline if the difference is so small that not even a professional could tell? Plus, after a couple generations of breeding a hybrid to a purebred wouldn't the hybrid genes dissipate? I'm not say any of You are wrong, because I completely understand. I'm just curious and want to know more on the subject.

[Jim Smith]

There are distinct differences between the species in scale count and coloration. Most experienced, serious breeders will not crossbreed between milk snake species and many feel that it is detrimental to the species and the hobby. I must say, from the sounds of your responses, you have your mind made up on cross breeding these two species. Ultimately,it's your call, but not one that I would ever recommend. Its a bit like people who breed different breeds of dogs together and then "name" them to sell on Craig's list. Not a very responsibly behavior. In my mind and the minds of many others, the offspring are just mutts. Good dogs for pets, but never for breeding.

[RAD House]

The dog comparison is a terrible example. First off all dogs are of the same species as the grey wolf, canis lupis. Secondly all dog breeds are a combination of some prior form of dogs. Thirdly all dog breeds are bred a certain way to sell to the masses for one reason or a another. There is really no good reason that if this person wants to create hybrids that they should not. If you do not like hybrids don't buy them.

[SnoopySnake]

I have to ask, what's the point in crossing the two? If they look so similar why do you need to make a hybrid instead of just keeping the bloodlines pure?

You sell the babies correctly labeled as a hybrid.

Buyer 1 sells snake to buyer 2 as a pure snake to make more money.

Buyer 2 breeds snake to a pure honduran or nelsons.

Buyer 2 now sells his offspring as pure, further muddying up bloodlines. And so on.

What is the point in this cross? Hybrids generally sell for less, unless it's something like a burmball, bateater etc that isn't easy to breed. They aren't going to look special. The only reason I can think of is, just because you can?

[Primal Rage]

The only reason people produce hybrids is to be "cool". It is a pathetic, self serving mindset that reflects a lack of integrity and character. They spend their time obsessing about how awesome "their" hybrids are going to be and unfortunately spend very little time thinking about the potential repercussions for the hobby as a whole. But hey, at the end of the day you can do whatever you want to do. Myself for instance, I do not sell any of my animals to anyone who openly claims to own or produce hybrids. Nor would I want to be friends or give advice to anyone who engauges in such reckless behavior. Just my 2 cents

[RAD House]

Owning pets is self serving, step off your high horse. The hobby only exists based on what people want to buy, not what you think they should. Your self righteous opinion isn't worth two cents.

[prairiepanda]

Originally Posted by snakekid6996

My biggest question is if they are really that close, that even professionals couldn't tell the difference, then why would it matter so much? How would it "dirty" the bloodline if the difference is so small that not even a professional could tell? Plus, after a couple generations of breeding a hybrid to a purebred wouldn't the hybrid genes dissipate? I'm not say any of You are wrong, because I completely understand. I'm just curious and want to know more on the subject.

I meant that the babies would be difficult to distinguish as hybrids; they could quite easily pass as some aberrant form of one or the other pure species. The two species are vastly different, but when you're just looking at a seller's photos of hatchlings online it can be tough. Professionals might not realize there is an issue until they receive the animal, and the average hobbyist might not realize until the animal matures or worse, until they've bred it! For example, there's quite a big difference in the size of adults; imagine someone's surprise when their little "Nelson's" grows to 6+ feet when they're only able to accommodate a 3.5ft snake! It could also screw up breeders, because the two species have different morphs and it's difficult to predict how F2 and F3 offspring might turn out. Any normals produced would certainly look strange.

[snakekid6996]

Originally Posted by Primal Rage

The only reason people produce hybrids is to be "cool". It is a pathetic, self serving mindset that reflects a lack of integrity and character. They spend their time obsessing about how awesome "their" hybrids are going to be and unfortunately spend very little time thinking about the potential repercussions for the hobby as a whole. But hey, at the end of the day you can do whatever you want to do. Myself for instance, I do not sell any of my animals to anyone who openly claims to own or produce hybrids. Nor would I want to be friends or give advice to anyone who engauges in such reckless behavior. Just my 2 cents

I didn't ask for Your opinion, I asked if it was possible. I never said I was for sure going to do it, again I only asked if it was possible. With that being said, I don't mind hearing anyone's opinions. In fact, that's what I want. I appriciate everyone that has commented back and have gave real thought to what everyone said. I come here to learn about the animals and what other people think are best for them, so I can make my own personal decisions on what I think is best for my snakes and me as a hobbiest. However, You didn't give any reasoning to why You think what You think and You accomplished nothing besides acting like an a** hole. So don't preach to me about character while You try to shove Your beliefs on how to breed snakes down my throat without even attempting to give me a logical reason why.

[millertime89]

Watch it guys. Hybrids are a touchy subject. If you don't like them and have said your piece move on if you have no more advice to give.