Snake ID in Coastal AL

[Lellen]

Hi. Let me start by saying I feel bad about this snake being killed. It was on the neighbors front porch very close to my small toddler and their front door, otherwise they would have tried to relocate it. It was questionable whether it is venomous as the head looked to be more diamond-shaped than rounded. We live close to a boggy area and have had terrible problems with the baby copperheads and cotton mouths coming to our porches to eat the little tree frogs and lizards that live there. This one did not look like either of those types and I would like some help identifying it. Someone said it looks like a pygmy rattler but I'm not too sure about that. Any thoughts?

[sharthun]

Looks like a harmless gray rat snake.

[Primal Rage]

Nice ID Steve. Def a Grey rat snake. Poor thing!

[Mikoh4792]

Can't be a rattler. It doesn't have a rattle. Head shapes are not always reliable in my opinion. Water snakes have diamond shaped heads as well. It's better to actually find a list of snakes in a certain area and learn what they look like.

[FWK]

Originally Posted by sharthun

Looks like a harmless gray rat snake.

Agreed, Gray Rat Snake.

[CosmicOwl]

Another casualty due to ignorance.

[sharthun]

Originally Posted by Primal Rage

Nice ID Steve. Def a Grey rat snake. Poor thing!

Thanks Rage, hate to see this but it happens.

[StudentoReptile]

Gray rat snake.

You cannot, repeat, cannot go by head shape when identifying snakes. It is subjective, and many snakes will flatten or spread their heads in defense or display when threatened.

Even color and pattern alone is not enough to distinguish venomous species from harmless ones, at least in the U.S.

Here's the main points:

1.) Pit Vipers (rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, and copperheads) all have pits between their nostrils and their eyes. No harmless species of snake in America does.

2.) Coral snakes have a black face followed by a yellow band, and (usually!) have fully encircling body bands of red, yellow and black, with the red touching the yellow. - The mimic species [scarlet kingsnakes, scarlet snakes and in the west, longnose snakes] have light-colored faces, black bands touching yellow bands, and, in the case of scarlets and longnose, the bands do not completely encircle the body.

[Sublimeballs]

Grey rat was my first thought aswell.

Just thinking out loud here but are there grey rats in Alabama? I don't know there range at all. I know they're not as far east as NC. if i found that around here it woukd be a young black rat.

[FWK]

Originally Posted by Sublimeballs

Grey rat was my first thought aswell.

Just thinking out loud here but are there grey rats in Alabama? I don't know there range at all. I know they're not as far east as NC. if i found that around here it woukd be a young black rat.

Gray Rats are found as far east as Alabama along the foothills of the Appalachians and as far north as Wisconsin.

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Gray rat snake.

You cannot, repeat, cannot go by head shape when identifying snakes. It is subjective, and many snakes will flatten or spread their heads in defense or display when threatened.

Even color and pattern alone is not enough to distinguish venomous species from harmless ones, at least in the U.S.

Here's the main points:

1.) Pit Vipers (rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, and copperheads) all have pits between their nostrils and their eyes. No harmless species of snake in America does.

You can absolutely positively ID a viper from any non-venomous snakes based on head shape alone. Definitely no need to get close enough to look for heat pits lol. I'd be confident I could ID a viper from most North American colubrids based on silhouette head shots. Pygmy Rattlers might trip me up but Crotalus and Agkistrodon are unmistakable. Add scales and colors and even at a distance it's easy money. Even Water Snakes in full display look nothing like Cottonmouths if you really know what you are looking for.

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

2.) [B]Coral snakes have a black face followed by a yellow band, and (usually!) have fully encircling body bands of red, yellow and black, with the red touching the yellow.

Texas and Eastern Coral snakes pattern starts with black/yellow/black then on into the repeating black/yellow/red/yellow/black pattern. Arizona Corals start with black and go straight into the standard pattern but the reds are cleaner (no black speckles that are found in the red bands of Texas and Eastern Corals) and the yellows are very pale, often almost white.

[Sublimeballs]

Originally Posted by FWK

Gray Rats are found as far east as Alabama along the foothills of the Appalachians and as far north as Wisconsin.



You can absolutely positively ID a viper from any non-venomous snakes based on head shape alone. Definitely no need to get close enough to look for heat pits lol. I'd be confident I could ID a viper from most North American colubrids based on silhouette head shots. Pygmy Rattlers might trip me up but Crotalus and Agkistrodon are unmistakable. Add scales and colors and even at a distance it's easy money. Even Water Snakes in full display look nothing like Cottonmouths if you really know what you are looking for.

Okay cool I wasn't sure, not native to my state so kind of out of sight out of mind.

But I have to disagree with you. Although experienced people like us can't identify a snake pm for sure by its head for someone unfamiliar with snakes a mad water snake flattening its head looks pretty similar to a pit vipers head. So I guess it's more I agree with you but when it comes to your average joe.

[StudentoReptile]

You can absolutely positively ID a viper from any non-venomous snakes based on head shape alone. Definitely no need to get close enough to look for heat pits lol. I'd be confident I could ID a viper from most North American colubrids based on silhouette head shots. Pygmy Rattlers might trip me up but Crotalus and Agkistrodon are unmistakable. Add scales and colors and even at a distance it's easy money. Even Water Snakes in full display look nothing like Cottonmouths if you really know what you are looking for.

Do what you want. But I'm going by Robert Mount's dichotomous key from his book the Reptiles & Amphibians of Alabama. Says nothing about head shape about any snake whatsoever.

I know we herpers have seen enough snakes to tell at a distance, but when I am educating the general public, I cannot tell them head shape is a determining factor because quite simply it is not.

There is a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things. A dichotomous key is how taxonomists distinguish species (and subspecies) from each other, and I believe that is how we should educate others to do the same. If we are not, we are simply moving backward against the advancement of science, not forward.

[FWK]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Do what you want. But I'm going by Robert Mount's dichotomous key from his book the Reptiles & Amphibians of Alabama. Says nothing about head shape about any snake whatsoever.

I know we herpers have seen enough snakes to tell at a distance, but when I am educating the general public, I cannot tell them head shape is a determining factor because quite simply it is not.

There is a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things. A dichotomous key is how taxonomists distinguish species (and subspecies) from each other, and I believe that is how we should educate others to do the same. If we are not, we are simply moving backward against the advancement of science, not forward.

A difference in methods I guess. My approach is more tailored to the average joe, I would never expect the general public to take a scientific approach to identifying an animal. A while back I showed a group of friends (mostly people who had never been exposed to snakes in person) a number of colubrids noting the shape of the head on each one carefully. Then I pulled out a Cottonmouth and every one of them took a step back and said something to the effect of "Whoa, that's different. What is it?" I asked them to describe to me what was so different about this animal and what I got was mostly that the head was "blocky" or more "square" than the previous animals. A couple of them noted the blunt, upturned nose and the distinctive "ridge" around the top of the head. They all said it looked meaner than the other snakes. I agree that "Diamond" shape is far to vague and subjective but with a little repetition it becomes obvious to even the most snake-illiterate that there is much more to the shape of a snakes head than the "Diamond" shape seen when viewed only from the top down. If I came across a melanistic Cottonmouth or Water Snake in the field I would still know at a glance if I was going to pin or tail it or just pick it up.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by FWK

A difference in methods I guess. My approach is more tailored to the average joe, I would never expect the general public to take a scientific approach to identifying an animal. A while back I showed a group of friends (mostly people who had never been exposed to snakes in person) a number of colubrids noting the shape of the head on each one carefully. Then I pulled out a Cottonmouth and every one of them took a step back and said something to the effect of "Whoa, that's different. What is it?" I asked them to describe to me what was so different about this animal and what I got was mostly that the head was "blocky" or more "square" than the previous animals. A couple of them noted the blunt, upturned nose and the distinctive "ridge" around the top of the head. They all said it looked meaner than the other snakes. I agree that "Diamond" shape is far to vague and subjective but with a little repetition it becomes obvious to even the most snake-illiterate that there is much more to the shape of a snakes head than the "Diamond" shape seen when viewed only from the top down. If I came across a melanistic Cottonmouth or Water Snake in the field I would still know at a glance if I was going to pin or tail it or just pick it up.

See, thats just it. Someone thinks triangle-shaped heads are venomous, and others think "diamond-shaped" are venomous, but what happens when they see a harmless water snake or hognose snake spread out its face, or see a large rat snake (which could be interpreted as a diamond-shaped head to some). Bottom line: can't go by head shape, so why perpetuate the idea that one can?

I mean, don't get me wrong; I do get that with experience, you can distinguish some species by looks. Trust me, I've caught enough gray rat snakes and brown snakes to ID one at a glance. But some you cannot. And the general public don't know either way, so I feel it is better to start educating people on the right path of proper snake identification whenever possible...just as we correct people on "venomous" instead of "poisonous" or rant about how more of an issue feral cats are to the environment than burmese pythons in Florida.

My goal is reducing the needless killing of any snake and encouraging ANYONE to be more familiar with all the snakes in their respective locales. The head-shape thing is BS and it just leads to more people misidentifying snakes. Period.

Here's a question: how do you distinguish copperheads from cottonmouths? Hint: its not by color, pattern or head shape.

[FWK]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

See, thats just it. Someone thinks triangle-shaped heads are venomous, and others think "diamond-shaped" are venomous, but what happens when they see a harmless water snake or hognose snake spread out its face, or see a large rat snake (which could be interpreted as a diamond-shaped head to some). Bottom line: can't go by head shape, so why perpetuate the idea that one can?

I mean, don't me wrong; I do get that with experience, you can distinguish some species by looks. Trust me, I've caught enough gray rat snakes and brown snakes to ID one at a glance. But some you cannot.

My goal is reducing the needless killing of any snake and encouraging ANYONE to be more familiar with all the snakes in their respective locales. The head-shape thing is BS and it just leads to more people misidentifying snakes. Period.

Here's a question: how do you distinguish copperheads from cottonmouths? Hint: its not by color, pattern or head shape.

We will just have to agree to disagree on the head shape topic lol.

As far as Copperheads vs Cottonmouths, they are both Agkistrodon and even capable of interbreeding. Cottonheads are popular with some collectors. I don't know how you tell them apart but for me it's easy based on the patterns on the sides of their heads. Even neonate Cottonmouths are easily distinguishable from Copperheads by looking at their heads. Cottonmouths tend to have a more sharply defined "ridge" around the top of their head, and a Cottonmouths head tends to be slightly larger and deeper. A Copperheads head rounds off just after the eyes, Cottonmouths heads are more flat on top. You get a greater sense of mass from a Cottonmouth than a Copperhead, even as neonates. Copperheads are more elegant, almost delicate. Copperheads are terribly under-appreciated in our hobby due to their abundance, they really are strikingly beautiful. The pattern on the rest of their body is distinctly different and easily identifiable was well, as long as it isn't an intergrade.