Species progression?

Dude123 · 04-25-14, 08:38 AM

Hey everyone.

Long time lurker here, lots of good information to be found! I've never posted but a few of the posts from the last few days have made me curious about something.

Often when talking about wanting to keep species that require very specific care instructions, posters are told to work their way up to that species. While these threads usually have a recommendation for that individual I have never seen a kind of commonly agreed on progression list for heading in certain directions. Obviously this isn't something that would be for everyone, and there are obviously multiple species that can fit.

For example, people are often told that Corn Snakes are a fantastic first snake to get into the hobby, but what if your goal was to get into giant snakes like Retics? How would you recommend to progress from Corn ----> Retic? I'm the most familiar with snakes so I could see fitting a Ball and Boa somewhere in between to gain experience with bigger snakes.

What about going towards keeping the various tree boas? or Hots, though they require a different sort of preparation and a mentor. Or lizard species. If I wanted to own an Iguana or large Monitor what experience should I have before acquiring one?

I guess the short version is that it might be nice for people new to the hobby to have a rough guide to glance at that would place common species, both for snakes and lizards, in a kind of progression order, especially with how common some species like Boas and some giants are and how much experience a keeper should really have before acquiring one.

What does everyone else think? Would something like this be worthwhile or even possible?

Kera · 04-25-14, 11:20 AM

I think if you know your "goal" snake, say a BCC red tail, start out small like corns/milks/etc. Then get into smaller boas and get used to them, then just start looking more into bigger localities, and progress your way up. Try to get snakes with the "same" attitude and care ("same" meaning all snakes are different, but generally speaking) and work your way up and just get experienced and comfortable with smaller snakes and get used to the care.
You move up when you KNOW you're ready, money, experience and space wise.

I hoped this helped.

This isn't to say many people don't jump right in. My first snake was an adult IJ carpet python, she was 7' and puppy dog tame, and I still haven't owned a colubrid of any sort. (Though I plan to..I guess I'm working my way down :P )

And welcome.

jpsteele80 · 04-25-14, 11:33 AM

That's a very good question, maybe a bunch of people here should get together and come up with a list that most everyone could agree on and make a post of it for general reference?

Starbuck · 04-25-14, 11:59 AM

i think it depends a lot on the individual keeper. I would not recommend a youth (under 25) to jump right into anything extreme because they may not have a stable enough situation to truly provide for that animal (i.e. giants or hots in an apartment building, when they may be going to university, or moving to different states, etc). However, an older individual who has done lots of research and is willing to take advice, and has good physical resources (mentors, vets, finances, space, etc) i might be fine in recommending they start with what they want (i.e. a larger boa or baby retic, Hots still require years of mentorship in my opinion).

I think if you know what you want, plan appropriately with your acquisitions. If someone wants to keep retics, they might be wasting time and space with a corn or king snake, they might be better off with a ball python or bcc/bci. Carpets are becoming very popular snakes for knowledgable beginners/novice keepers. The bottom line is to not be impulsive. I was guilty of this, and now have several corns that were 'accidental' acquisitions, and while I'm not trying to rehome them, they are taking up space in my collection when i would rather have another carpet or two.

As far as temperament, I know a keeper who keeps several really feisty bamboo rat snakes and coachwhips to keep her on her toes for working with hots in the field (for her research). I think there is a really good article (the abcs of hot keeping?) about how to get into keeping hots. The bottom line is treating the animal with respect, and dont get complacent or disillusioned about their capabilities (whether it be giants or hots).

Derek Roddy · 04-25-14, 01:04 PM

Great question.

Keeping a corn can't "prepare" you for keeping a Boa, Keeping a Boa will not "prepare" you for keeping a BlackHead and keeping a BLackHead will not "prepare" you for keeping a Tiger snake.

The best way for anybody interested in learning about snakes (overall...no matter what the species) is not owning a snake at all.

Observation and basic understanding of a reptiles basic needs is all you need to successfully "house" any snake....big or small.
Observe them in their natural habitat, study their basic biology and work and listen to others who have experience working with said animals.

I think bad decisions are what actually cause issues with keeping various types of snakes.

If you have room for a retic and you understand the basic needs and requirements for keeping such an animal...you should have no issue.
Making a bad decision to keep a 16 foot animal in an apartment....is the actual problem. Not having the snake.

And making those decisions have nothing to do with species but, knowledge of yourself and, what you know you're capable of.

That is sometimes harder to understand than the animal.

D

Dude123 · 04-25-14, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsteele80

That's a very good question, maybe a bunch of people here should get together and come up with a list that most everyone could agree on and make a post of it for general reference?

This is kind of what I was thinking of, or maybe a some sort of list along the lines of, if you like these species you may also like... though it may be too difficult to compose something like this.

red ink · 04-25-14, 05:29 PM

I'm with Derek on this one...

I have friends who are "newer" to the hobby than me keeping Death adders, Taipans and scrubs who have never even kept a small python and doing it successfully.

Reason being they did the research, knew what they were in for and provide all the correct care.
If people wish to keep any snake do the research and provide the proper care.

There's tons of info out there.... the only reasons people "would" run into problems is due to poor research. Even a corn snake requires a bit of research to be kept successfully, so if you don't want a corn and want a retic instead, why buy and care for a corn?

If they aren't successful at keeping a corn is the reason being they did not "level up" properly and should have started with a feather boa? No the reason they are not successful is due to lack of research and understanding....

I don't believe in advance species, it's just advanced understanding and research. Any species will thrive under the proper conditions. What does conditions are is for the keeper to understand the animal species has nothing to do with it, they are just there to be cared for.

I have the license to keep Oxyuranus microlepidotus and Crocodylus prosus, reason i don't is because i understand the level of husbandry requirement they need and danger they pose. Neither of which i desire to undertake.

jpsteele80 · 04-25-14, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red ink

I'm with Derek on this one...

I have friends who are "newer" to the hobby than me keeping Death adders, Taipans and scrubs who have never even kept a small python and doing it successfully.

Reason being they did the research, knew what they were in for and provide all the correct care.
If people wish to keep any snake do the research and provide the proper care.

There's tons of info out there.... the only reasons people "would" run into problems is due to poor research. Even a corn snake requires a bit of research to be kept successfully, so if you don't want a corn and want a retic instead, why buy and care for a corn?

If they aren't successful at keeping a corn is the reason being they did not "level up" properly and should have started with a feather boa? No the reason they are not successful is due to lack of research and understanding....

I don't believe in advance species, it's just advanced understanding and research. Any species will thrive under the proper conditions. What does conditions are is for the keeper to understand the animal species has nothing to do with it, they are just there to be cared for.

I have the license to keep Oxyuranus microlepidotus and Crocodylus prosus, reason i don't is because i understand the level of husbandry requirement they need and danger they pose. Neither of which i desire to undertake.

So if I've never had a snake before and I do research it's ok for me to go out and get a cobra? I have to disagree with you a bit here, you can do all the research in the world but if you can't keep a corn or a ball python alive you certainly don't need a retic or a hot

red ink · 04-25-14, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsteele80

So if I've never had a snake before and I do research it's ok for me to go out and get a cobra? I have to disagree with you a bit here, you can do all the research in the world but if you can't keep a corn or a ball python alive you certainly don't need a retic or a hot

Yeah... you can keep a cobra with just doing the research despite never keeping a ball or a corn. Plenty of people around South East Asia do it, and some of them don't even have access to the internet

jpsteele80 · 04-25-14, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red ink

Yeah... you can keep a cobra with just doing the research despite never keeping a ball or a corn. Plenty of people around South East Asia do it, and some of them don't even have access to the internet

Well this is one are where we disagree, people in south east Asia also have to deal with them In rice fields And removing them from there houses so there used to dealing with them as well.

Sublimeballs · 04-25-14, 06:16 PM

I'm going to have to agree, other species can't get you "ready" for another other then learning how to keep the enclosure in similar conditions. I'm a believer in if you want to try something a "step up", gets some hands on experience with it. If you think you want a retic, or any other giants, find someone that is willing to let you handle( attempt to influence what it does)theirs. it will give you a good idea of what your getting into. For training for hots(as it has been pointed out) fast aggressive non venomous snakes are the best thing without possible loss of limb or life.

Edit: obviously handling an animal once isn't enough, you need to experience feeding, cleaning, etc...

All this stems back to research. You wouldn't buy a car without a test drive. After proper research if you still have an eye for what you want that's what you should get.

red ink · 04-25-14, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsteele80

Well this is one are where we disagree, people in south east Asia also have to deal with them In rice fields And removing them from there houses so there used to dealing with them as well.

So how does dealing with a ball or a corn prepare you for a cobra... neither of which are a cobra?

Sublimeballs · 04-25-14, 06:23 PM

An aggressive black racer will help much better then a corn or a ball.

Kera · 04-25-14, 06:33 PM

I think it comes down to maturity and respect for the animal. If you know you aren't ready for a cobra, but know you want one eventually, care for an animal with a similar attitude, just not as dangerous. I agree with the research part as well, if you do enough research and know what you're getting yourself into, you can do it. That too, though, ties in with maturity.

Dude123 · 04-25-14, 06:42 PM

Thanks for the posts guys, its an interesting topic.

Just to be clear; I'm certainly not suggesting that one must own a corn or ball before moving on to another species. My initial post was brought on by the fact that on most places I frequent, I see a lot of, "Newbie wants to keep a Chameleon/Varanid/giant snake/Sulcata tortoise/hots" posts that end up with replies like "(Insert species here) isn't really a good beginner animal, you should get a leopard gecko/corn snake etc" but I have never seen any sort of suggested progression list and it made me curious what people were thinking.

Obviously many of these posts are just pointing out facts people might not know before they dive in, but I've seen the same responses to people who keep reptiles, but only more of the basic species.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sublimeballs

An aggressive black racer will help much better then a corn or a ball.

This is kind of what I was thinking about. Would a list of species that would help gain experience for another species be a good thing? A list need not begin with Corns or Ball Pythons, but rather would include only relevant species in regards to the end goal. A list for hots might include suggestions of fast, aggressive non venomous species that people might want to hone their skills with before getting a viper. A list for giants might include species that are large and robust, but not to the extremes of a Burm or Anaconda.

I'm big on the research aspect of things. Personally, whenever I come across a species that interests me I add it to a list I keep on my computer. I also research these species and create my own notes or care sheets on the species. and use these to help me decide if I can provide the correct care needs when considering a new species.