Some advice required.

Toggsy · 02-13-14, 04:14 PM

First of all I'm not new to keeping snakes and I've kept them for a good few years so I'm not a novice or an inexperienced keeper but I've got a problem with a corn which is very concerning.
He's and adult anery male and is approx 5 years old normally he's the most placid, docile snake and you can do pretty much anything with him.
When he's in mood normally he will just rattle his tail and slope off into one of his hides and just poke his head out.
We offered him his food tonight as per normal, and normally he strikes and just gets on with in and if he's in one of his moods we just drop it in and leave him to it within 5 mins he's chomping it down.
Not tonight, we offered it to him he hissed and rattled his tail made a defensive strike, so my partner dropped the rat in the opposite end of his viv and but he struck at my partner whilst she was putting it in.
And since then he's watching every movement and striking at anything and everything including the glass.
Where he's striking at the glass and with so much force he's actually made his nose bleed in the process.
Whilst I want to get him out and check him over to make sure he's ok I feel where he's so agitated it will only make matters worse and stress him out even more.
I've managed to retrieve the food from his enclosure and I've covered his enclosure up with towels to stop him tracking any movements and I've turned the lights off in the enclosure.
I've checked the temps in the viv which were all are spot on and as they should be but I have turned the temps down to 24 in order to try and cool him down to make less active.
He's not due for shed as he only shed 3 weeks ago so I've ruled that out, and he's pooing ok so that can be ruled out.
I have noticed the last week or so he's been out cruising his enclosure more and is very very alert although we have had him out and he's been fine no aggressiveness and in fact he was out earlier in the day whilst we cleaned the enclosure out and replaced the temporary substrate.
We are treating our carpet pythons for mites and as a precaution we've treated all the other snakes in our collection including our corn wether or not they had them.
Before he was treated he was checked and found to mite free I'm using callingtons mite spray.
I've spoken to a fellow keeper who keeps and breeds corns and he seems to think it maybe down to fact he's ready to breed.

Just wanted to run it past everyone to get some other views on it.
At the moment he's not a happy bunny which is a concearn as normally he's a docile and pleasant snake.

**Tsubaki** · 02-13-14, 04:20 PM

Sounds like his hormones are about to spout out his tail, i wouldn't worry too much about it personally.

If he jumps at the glass and you can't avoid walking past the viv, i would keep it covered up until he has calmed down. Especially since he already damaged his nose, they can really hurt themselves that way.

Toggsy · 02-13-14, 04:27 PM

Just wanted to add some more information regarding the mite treatment.
He was treated last week and I was going to treat him again this week so I thought I would offer him food before treated him then that way he would disappear in his hot end whilst he digests his food.
He's totally trashed his enclosure

Lankyrob · 02-13-14, 06:20 PM

My three year old vivs have been similar, not quite so strikey but prowling around looking for lurve, my elder corn has only just started eating again after a three month hormone driven hunger strike.

**Tsubaki** · 02-14-14, 05:05 AM

Yea, one of my adult retic males would trash anything when the hormones flared up.. He was usually very docile, the most friendly snake i ever owned.. But he would act like he spawned right out of hell during the breeding season...

Worst thing to ever happen? He slammed a rock against the glass, he was moving very quickly trying to get me. Causing him to push the stone with his lower body.. Thank god it was safety glass, only minor damage. Males can be nuts haha

Toggsy · 02-14-14, 09:26 AM

Quick up date.
He was still the same today striking every time you went near him so even with the lights off and glass covered he hasn't calmed down so still the son of satan.
So I made the decision to remove him from his enclosure and bag him in a pillow case, getting him though out wasn't for the faint hearted I'm just glad I had some gardening gloves as he meant business managed to get him out without to much fuss.
I double bagged him in 2 black pillowcase which I've put in a seperate rub in a cool part of the house and he's been in there for about 1hr and he seems a lot calmer than what he was.
I'm going to leave him bagged up for 24hrs then reintroduce him to his enclosure hopefully this will calm him right down.
Also I've throughly steamed the whole enclosure again to remove any traces of scent etc before he will be reintroduced.
Fingers crossed he will be back to normal I'll keep you updated on how he is over the next few days.

Cheers
Nick

**Aaron_S** · 02-14-14, 09:59 AM

Patience is/was key here.

No tricks needed. Patience.

**Tsubaki** · 02-14-14, 01:51 PM

I don't really understand why you would put him in a bag in a cool place? because he is showing natural behavior, you're going to deprive him of water and proper heat for 24 hours? Sorry but that sounds very odd! What would have been wrong with just leaving him alone?

Toggsy · 02-14-14, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsubaki

I don't really understand why you would put him in a bag in a cool place? because he is showing natural behavior, you're going to deprive him of water and proper heat for 24 hours? Sorry but that sounds very odd! What would have been wrong with just leaving him alone?

Yes I understand that he's showing natural behaviour but at what cost to his health where he's so agitated and constantly striking the glass there is a risk to his health through stress plus the fact that also he may injure himself by striking the glass..
I've tried leaving him alone and covering his enclosure but this hasn't worked so I think in this instant what I've done is justified as he wasn't showing any signs of calming down and no one likes to see their snakes get hurt or stressed so this was the best and right option to choose.

I have checked on him and he does seem to be somewhat calmer but he is still very alert and on edge.
Putting him a bag and cooling him for 24 hrs will do him no harm and if I thought it would I certainly would not have not done it.
Thanks for your concerns and points raised though.

**Tsubaki** · 02-14-14, 02:41 PM

Sorry but now i am seriously questioning your methods.

How can you know he still strikes, if he is covered and you left him alone? What are those 'signs of calming down' you expect to see in leaving him alone for only a few hours? (And reading this i can see you did not even leave him alone properly!)

You only posted this yesterday, you have not even given him a chance? Leaving him completely alone means no checking, looking for 'signs', peeking or what so ever. And covering up his tank should be done in a way, that he can not see anything outside the tank anymore. Why would he bite at what he can not see, unless it was not properly covered?

Cooling him down calms him physically, because reptiles bodies do not function when they are too cold. It does nothing to the animals psyche and hormones, might only stress them out more. Tons of things you could of tried before resorting to this, my personal opinion being that depriving an animal of its basic necessity's as warmth and water is purposely neglecting it. Even if the animal would calm down because of this, it is unhealthy and unnecessary.. And doing this for 24 hours, i would go as far as calling it cruel.

Toggsy · 02-14-14, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsubaki

Sorry but now i am seriously questioning your methods.

How can you know he still strikes, if he is covered and you left him alone? What are those 'signs of calming down' you expect to see in leaving him alone for only a few hours? (And reading this i can see you did not even leave him alone properly!)

You only posted this yesterday, you have not even given him a chance? Leaving him completely alone means no checking, looking for 'signs', peeking or what so ever. And covering up his tank should be done in a way, that he can not see anything outside the tank anymore. Why would he bite at what he can not see, unless it was not properly covered?

Cooling him down calms him physically, because reptiles bodies do not function when they are too cold. It does nothing to the animals psyche and hormones, might only stress them out more. Tons of things you could of tried before resorting to this, my personal opinion being that depriving an animal of its basic necessity's as warmth and water is purposely neglecting it. Even if the animal would calm down because of this, it is unhealthy and unnecessary.. And doing this for 24 hours, i would go as far as calling it cruel.

I've took on board what you've said and so I took him out of his bag as he was chilled out and he seemed fine whilst I was handling him no striking,hissing or tail rattling.
So I put him back into his enclosure and literally within minutes of being back in his enclosure, he coiled backed and started striking again and all I was doing was putting fresh water in his bowl.
He's now got blood pouring from his nose again so I've removed him and put back into his bag for his own safety.
This may be natural behaviour but what else can I do to stop him hurting himself.
I spoke to a fellow keeper who breeds corns and it was on his suggestion that I should try bagging him for 24hrs and it's not cruel to do so.
What would be cruel is allowing him to hurt himself further as he seems to strike at the slightest movement or any vibration even though his viv was covered with a thick blanket whilst he's in bag he can't strike and injure himself further and he is calm.
He was left for 12 hours so hardly continually checked before I made the decision to bag him
I may move him into small rub tomorrow once he's settled again whilst he's in cooler part of the house it's still within temps required for keeping corns

Toggsy · 02-14-14, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsubaki

Sorry but now i am seriously questioning your methods.

How can you know he still strikes, if he is covered and you left him alone? What are those 'signs of calming down' you expect to see in leaving him alone for only a few hours? (And reading this i can see you did not even leave him alone properly!)

You only posted this yesterday, you have not even given him a chance? Leaving him completely alone means no checking, looking for 'signs', peeking or what so ever. And covering up his tank should be done in a way, that he can not see anything outside the tank anymore. Why would he bite at what he can not see, unless it was not properly covered?

Cooling him down calms him physically, because reptiles bodies do not function when they are too cold. It does nothing to the animals psyche and hormones, might only stress them out more. Tons of things you could of tried before resorting to this, my personal opinion being that depriving an animal of its basic necessity's as warmth and water is purposely neglecting it. Even if the animal would calm down because of this, it is unhealthy and unnecessary.. And doing this for 24 hours, i would go as far as calling it cruel.

I've took on board what you've said and so I took him out of his bag as he was chilled out and he seemed fine whilst I was handling him no striking,hissing or tail rattling.
So I put him back into his enclosure and literally within minutes of being back in his enclosure, he coiled backed and started striking again and all I was doing was putting fresh water in his bowl.
He's now got blood pouring from his nose again so I've removed him and put back into his bag for his own safety.
This may be natural behaviour but what else can I do to stop him hurting himself.
I spoke to a fellow keeper who breeds corns and it was on his suggestion that I should try bagging him for 24hrs and it's not cruel to do so.
What would be cruel is allowing him to hurt himself further as he seems to strike at the slightest movement or any vibration even though his viv was covered with a thick blanket whilst he's in bag he can't strike and injure himself further and he is calm.
He was left for 12 hours so hardly continually checked before I made the decision to bag him
I may move him into small rub tomorrow once he's settled again whilst he's in cooler part of the house it's still within temps required for keeping corns

**Tsubaki** · 02-14-14, 03:45 PM

You cleaned out the enclosure, even steamed it out. But minutes after taking him out of a very stressful situation, when he was still getting warmed up and re-accustomed to where he was (Especially with everything being thoroughly cleaned and being in a bag for hours, it was basically moving him to a new enclosure) You had to clean/fill his water? You mean you cleaned everything.. besides his water-bowl? So you had to go and disturb him yet again, and find it odd he tried to bite again? Seriously? I read this 3 times to be sure i read it right, but you just don't leave him alone. 12 hours is a Very short time for an animal to be left alone, it should have been 2 weeks. And if he was left alone properly, there would not of been slight movements to bite at! Also, he gets put back into the bag, after being in the viv for mere minutes! (check the time difference between out posts, it has only been minutes!)

What kind of snake breeder advised to put a snake in a bag to calm down, it's not a human-child you can't put them in a time out! I do not see how anything other than the dark environment, is going to calm an animal by putting it in a bag. How can anyone not find that cruel? When i buy an animal i go straight home because i dislike them being in a transport bag, the longer they have been in one the more stressed they get.

Best thing you could of done was actually leaving him alone completely, and if the snake is in a too busy area for that. Move the viv, or move the snake to a viv in a more secluded space. If you can't handle this without bagging the animal i would seriously consider what you are doing, what if he doesn't stop? You going to keep him bagged the rest of his life? I have had snakes who were like this all the time, breeding season or not.. I never had to bag any of them.

CameronVarnish · 02-14-14, 04:42 PM

I completely agree with Tsubaki... Bagging him up seems cruel and unnecessary. I'm not sure what the reasoning was. seems very... odd...

**Aaron_S** · 02-14-14, 08:42 PM

Honestly I would like to see pics of this "pouring of the blood".

I have seen MANY snakes strike glass and yet to see any actually bloody themselves on it.

I'm beginning to call foul on this whole ordeal. Especially since someone already pointed out holes in your story.