Red Tail Green Rat Snake - Many Questions

[Marwan]

Hey guys,

I could use some help here. I recently volunteered to take in a red tail green rat snake. It was ordered by someone who didn't want it. I'll spare you the story of the snake as well as my story.

I am fairly experienced with snakes from corns to burms to retics but this snake's upkeep and hardiness are something i haven't tackled before.

I have read all the care sheets out there and i also watched all youtube videos pertaining to the species, at this point i'd rather just talk to someone who has some experience with asian rat snakes.

Snake basic info:
Around 5-6 feet
Wild Caught
Food offered is live small birds. One small bird every feeding.

Environment:
Long terrarium with many branches and trees
Humidity 70%-90%
Substrate is plantation soil with moss

The snake has a black scale on its nose. Maybe it rubbed it off during shipping or it was hurt somehow in the wild.

The things i need to know

Humidity
1. Does anyone have experience with reptile humidifiers. I tried one for awhile and it seems to do the job of keeping the terrarium at a 70% to 90% humidity level. Online sheets say spraying 2-4 times a day should suffice(this seems too little to me).
Tongue Behaviour
2. The snake has a peculiar behavior of touching everything with it’s tongue. It will often stick it’s head to the glass and flick its tongue out; since the head is touching the glass, the tongue comes out sideways. It even does that when it’s outside the terrarium, it enjoys touching things with it’s tongue, is this a behavior specific to this species. It seems they only drink off the walls and take time to get used to bowls, could this be what it’s doing, searching for water? Seems very unlikely.
Switching from birds to mice
3. I usually know how to scent a mouse/rat with a bird for boas and pythons, we’d often put the mouse/rat under a quail’s wing for it to smell like a bird. But with a snake like this, the birds I can get are alive and I don’t know how I can scent a mouse with those small birds and if there are any bait and switch tactics to use. Couldn’t find anything useful online.
Feeding Size
4. Feeding size, I’ve never dealt with larger colubrids. Do I follow the same rules and guides for feeding? Feeding big enough to leave a lump in the snake. Feeding a large mouse once every 10-12 days?

Sorry for the long post, any help or perhaps direction as to where I can seek some help would be appreciated.

[UwabamiReptiles]

I have two of these guys and they are very straightforward once established. The issue that most people run into with these snakes is that the wild caught ones almost always come in with a huge parasite load(internal and external) and massive amounts of stress. These two factors usually lead to the snakes not fairing too well in captivity. If you can be one of the few that can overcome these two factors, you can usually have a pretty hardy snake. Now I really like these guys so I will apologize now for the long winded post.

Now to your questions:
The fact that you have a wild caught adult means that things are going to be a little tougher to get stabilized. You didn't mention how long the snake has been in captivity. In most cases, the best thing to do is put the snake in a dark secure cage(with a basking spot, plenty of foliage for cover, and correct humidity) in a space that is free from a lot of activity. I have read that these snakes have a better chance of surviving when left alone at first. Only interact when absolutely necessary. These aren't snakes to really handle anyway, all the times I've handled mine, it just seems to stress them out and make them go into defensive mode.

As far as the humidity, I just spray mine once or twice a day. I am also in Florida so keeping humidity up isn't usually an issue for me. A reptile humidifier would be an easy way to keep humidity up. Spraying up to 4 times a day seems a little much for me. You want the cage to have a dry out period as well. If the cage is always soaked from spraying, that's when you can start running into fungal infections and all that fun stuff.

The tongue coming out sideways doesn't sound like normal behavior to me. Red Tailed Green Rats are notorious for flicking their tongues very slowly where it will touch the top of their head to the bottom of their chin. What you describe doesn't sound seem right but I can't really say too much more on that. These snakes almost never drink from a water bowl, that being said, still have a clean water bowl available at all times. They will usually drink the water that is sprayed on the foliage around them and on them.

If all you can get is live birds, I would get some of the birds feathers and scent the mice with that. Just put the feathers in a bag with the mouse(I'm assuming the mice are pre-killed here) and shake it around. You could even wet the mouse and stick the feathers to it.

These guys like smaller meals more frequently. They have incredibly fast metabolisms. So smaller meals more often is the best way to go. They aren't pythons so try to feed them a meal that will barely be noticeable after eating. If it is a 5-6 ft adult, a mouse every 7-10 days would be a great feeding schedule.

I hope I answered your questions, if you have any others just ask.

[Roman]

The first thing to do with a wild caught Gonyosoma is to treat the infection(s). Almost all wc Gonyosoma have some kind of nematodes (hair worms) and/or roundworms in their lungs and other organs. This is usually no problem for the snakes in the wild, but combined with the stress of being caught and shipped and dehydration during transport this infection gets out of control and a lot of snakes will die within a short time.

Get some feces and send them to a laboratory or a vet for examination. Usually they may find some eggs or parts of the worms and can identify them, so you can choose the right treatment. I would also advice to get your snake to a vet as soon as possible to have a look at this black spot at its nose. The vet should also take a smear test of the mouth of your snake, there might be also some traces of a possible worm infection. The vet should check the mouth for other infections (bacteria etc.) as well, maybe this tongue flicker to the side of the mouth is caused by some wound or infection of the mouth.

In addition to the good advice you already got from UwabamiReptiles I would like to add some remarks of my own.

You wrote you have a “long terrarium”. Could you specify the size of it so we might get a better impression about it? Usually it would be better if the enclosure for Gonyosoma is at least as high as it is long.

As long as you don’t know if your snake is healthy you should leave it alone as much as possible. I would not try to convert it to mice right now. Can you get your hands on fledgling chickens? You might get them frozen and could try if your snake will eat them. Some providers offer 3 – 5 day old fledglings, they have the big advantage that they have absorbed their yolk sac, so you don’t have any trouble with the feces afterwards (one day old chicks are one big yolk sac, that’s what causes the feces to be so smelly).

I would try to switch to mice only after you established your snake and a feces examination doesn’t show any infection. One big mouse or a small rat every 2 weeks is OK, but it might be impossible to get your snake to eat them. WC red tails are known to be picky eaters, if they are used to eat birds it might not be possible to get them to eat mice or rats.

If you established your snake you might add some plants to provide additional cover and to help keeping the humidity up.

I wrote a little something about Gonyosoma here --> http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/gener...-ratsnake.html

and some basic information about plants here --> http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/natur...errariums.html


Roman

[Mikoh4792]

Roman your enclosures really ups the standards for snake keepers. If I ever have the room I will definitely give my snakes something as roomy as that. Big enclosures like that are also great for observing natural behavior. The idea that big enclosures = stress is an excuse to justify cramming snakes into small tubs and cages.

[Roman]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Roman your enclosures really ups the standards for snake keepers. If I ever have the room I will definitely give my snakes something as roomy as that. Big enclosures like that are also great for observing natural behavior. The idea that big enclosures = stress is an excuse to justify cramming snakes into small tubs and cages.

Thanks!

Large enclosures offer a lot of advantages

- As you already said, the snakes will show you much more of their natural behavior.

- Especially a deeper enclosure will reduce the stress for nervous snakes, because they are able to keep their distance even if you do some maintenance.

- It is easier to maintain the right temperature and humidity.

- You can create a warm “hot spot” under a basking lamp without risking to overheat your enclosure, quite the opposite, you get a nice temperature gradient.

But most of all, it is just fun to watch an active snake moving around for hours if you provide the space for it to do so.

Roman

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Roman

Thanks!

Large enclosures offer a lot of advantages

- As you already said, the snakes will show you much more of their natural behavior.

- Especially a deeper enclosure will reduce the stress for nervous snakes, because they are able to keep their distance even if you do some maintenance.

- It is easier to maintain the right temperature and humidity.

- You can create a warm “hot spot” under a basking lamp without risking to overheat your enclosure, quite the opposite, you get a nice temperature gradient.

But most of all, it is just fun to watch an active snake moving around for hours if you provide the space for it to do so.

Roman

Totally agree, with more space you can do some much more in terms of creating a temperature gradient. You can have a very hot area for "real" basking, then a hot side just to stay warm...etc. Gives the snakes more options to thermoregulate.

Also very interesting to see how your animal interacts with it's environment when there are multiple branches and hides..etc

[Marwan]

I first of all, would like to thank you for all the information and support.
I second of all would like to apologize for the delay in the reply.

Here we go with another series of questions. I really want to help this little guy.


Substrate - Water Spraying
I mentioned before i have a mixture of plantation soil as well as moss as substrate. I managed to catch the snake drinking but i noticed he was swallowing some soil with the water.I assume snakes in the wild are accustomed to that but i still don't feel too easy about it. Not to mention everytime i look at him i tend to find some soil on parts of his nose and face. I feel like i should switch to some coco husk/bark with moss. Any input on that?

Arboreal
The snake likes to lay on the floor. I have alot of trees and plants and i just got it a nice hidehouse on top. Given the nature of this snake, does this mean the setup was incorrect or it's just a personal preference. (Silly question i know, but better safe than sorry).
PS: Tank is 90cms long


Feces - Deworming
I took a sample of feces to the vet. The sample was small and covered with soil, but i hope that shoud suffice. Now assuming they do find something, would treating the actual terrarium be necassary or would treating the snake suffice?


Mouth rot - Respiratory infection - Tongue sideways
Symptoms 1 2 and 3 were from the first day that i got recieved this snake.

1. When i first got the snake, i noticed it was rubbing its face on the glass alot(sign of respiratory infection).

2. Also, whenever it would stick it's tongue out, the mouth from the sides would slightly open(just barely). I didn't know if that was a species thing or some form of mouth damage. Can anyone confirm this about the species?

3. When i would handle it to inspect it(first few weeks), I'd hear this weezing sound. I couldn't confirm whether this was a sound due to the puffing that the species does, or it was uncomfortable breathing from the snake.

I must say i failed to connect the dots

------
Finally, two days ago

4. I noticed some mucus on one side of the mouth, i opened it's mouth and found it full of mucus/saliva. When the snake is resting, it looks like it's constantly chewing on something - trying to swallow.

I've taken all the necassary precautions, i've dealt with similar situations before, but any added advice would be very helpful. On what to do next

The vets here are unfortunately not the best. They can do the treatment well, but the diagnosis is a bit shabby.

[UwabamiReptiles]

1. You can switch substrates if it would make you more comfortable. My guys are on sphagnum peat moss and they like to dig their heads in it and get it all over their face. Has not been an issue for me.

2. Its funny you bring up the arboreal question. All the info you can research about this species says that they are close to 100% arboreal. It can give you the idea that they are like chameleons. Mine are usually on their perches or in their elevated hide boxes. But I have noticed that once they get into a routine, they will be all over their cages. They do lay on the floor more than you would expect though. I talk to a guy from time to time who works with the gonyos and he says his are on floor sometimes as well.

3. If you are going to deworm the snake then just worry about the snake. The parasites that you would be treating for are internal I am assuming so they won't live in the cage. If you have noticed any mites, which are a kind of external parasite, or want to be cautious, you can clean out the whole cage.

4. What you describe sounds like a RI. The best thing to do is get the snake to the vet and get him on a proper meds before it gets to the point of no return. The sideways tongue stuff doesn't sound normal.

[Marwan]

Ok so 3 weeks later. This is what's happening right now.Took it to vet who directly gave it the following.

Medication
----------------------
Panacur - Oral for deworming - Twice 10 days apart. No feces were taken, he just said it will definately have worms.


Shot of something, i forget the name, for salmonella. 3 shots 3 days apart. Also he just assumed it has it.

Jotril(antibiotic) - Oral daily .15ml.


------------------
Currently at day 17. Snake's mouth is clear of all mucus but the snake has become really inactive(or so i feel). I go to work and come back and it's in the same spot, the only time he changes positions is when i have to take him out DAILY and give him his antibiotics orally. I can't really tell if he's in shed, his colors look shiny as ever. He's refused his last 3 feedings.(I try every 4-5 days). The second he sees the bird he hides. Not sure where to go from here. Any advice, opinions, heck even moral support at this point is good.

[Aaron_S]

I would forego the salmonella shots. Especially if it's not actually diagnosed. It's not something common to animals, even wild caughts. It just goes without saying to wash your hands well after handling/treating the animal.

I do not know the specific life cycle of which "worms" it has but Wayne (Infernalis) has a really neat picture of a cycle of parasites and how naturally they will disappear for monitors.
Note: As I said I do not know for sure if this would apply to this snake and it's parasites but it's worth finding again anyway. You can PM him for it.

Also, if the snake is holding it's weight okay and it is hydrated I wouldn't worry about the appetite. It's currently on or just finished with 3 different medications. They could be affecting the appetite.

Moral support? You've done well. As stated this is a notoriously difficult species to acclimate to captivity. I have found that it's a number of various things that kill them (dehydration, parasite loads, RI..etc) but I believe stress is the biggest issue. It's a silent killer and most people don't realize it.