Interesting new whole prey item...

[Vegasarah]

Living in the desert means I don't have access to very many food sources. Everything here is imported- it means the price of simple things like fresh water prey items are extremely high. Recently I've been considering going out with a local herp group into the desert to do some blacklight hunting for scorpions. Many of them feed them to some of their own collection- apparently bearded dragons love them. Stingers are removed beforehand, of course.

So what do you guys think? Safe to feed to a Nile/ Sav/ Salvator if it has the stinger removed? Are there an parasites etc that could be transferred?

[Mikoh4792]

Parasites are always a concern with wild-caught prey items. However it's pretty cool that you can go with a group of other herpers in your area to go scorpion hunting.

[B_Aller]

I've fed out scorpions before to exanthematicus and dumerilii without ill effects. I have some serious doubts as to whether parasites from these types of prey are a problem, generally captivity interrupts their life cycle so they don't reproduce and become burdensome.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Parasites are always a concern with wild-caught prey items. However it's pretty cool that you can go with a group of other herpers in your area to go scorpion hunting.

Many folks do not realize that most multi cell parasites from the North American continent have evolved over millions of years to do well in North American hosts, and commonly pass right through tropical host animals without infecting them.

The term "cold blooded" does not really apply to Varanids. They like their blood hot. Meaning that most of these organisms cannot tolerate living in a host that will bask itself up hotter than the hosts the organism evolved to occupy.

In much the same fashion as a fever flushes out the common cold or the flu in us, hot basking does a similar effect with our lizard friends.

I doubt a few scorpions from the desert are going to give your Nile a lethal case of roundworm.

Sarah already knows to keep her lizard well heated.

[Mikoh4792]

@ infernalis and B_aller

Did not know that. Pretty interesting.

[Gatorhunter1231]

If you are worried about potential parasites then freeze the scorpions.

[formica]

Its not true that parasites do not do well in alien hosts, some parasites have adapted to certain species and will only infect them, but it can often be the opposite, alien hosts have not adapted to fight the parasite and are often killed or made seriously ill by them - we need to be very careful introducing wild food to any species for this reason

Originally Posted by infernalis

The term "cold blooded" does not really apply to Varanids. They like their blood hot.

this is a common misunderstanding of the term cold blooded, it means simply that the animal cannot generate its own heat, it doesnt have anything to do with the temperature the animal needs to reach to function properly

according to DB's book, they maintain a temperature of 38C at adulthood, regardless of the basking temperature, 38C is only a little bit above many mammals

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by formica

Its not true that parasites do not do well in alien hosts, some parasites have adapted to certain species and will only infect them, but it can often be the opposite, alien hosts have not adapted to fight the parasite and are often killed or made seriously ill by them - we need to be very careful introducing wild food to any species for this reason



this is a common misunderstanding of the term cold blooded, it means simply that the animal cannot generate its own heat, it doesnt have anything to do with the temperature the animal needs to reach to function properly

according to DB's book, they maintain a temperature of 38C at adulthood, regardless of the basking temperature, 38C is only a little bit above many mammals

How do they maintain internal body temperature if they are ectothermic?

[formica]

Originally Posted by smy_749

How do they maintain internal body temperature if they are ectothermic?

I have no idea what their physiology is doing to stablize the tempreture, only what DB reported in his book - when they bask, their temp is a steady 38C (large adults, not young), there is also no information on which part of the body was measured or how

the 38C is not a refrence to tempretures when not basking or asleep etc

[smy_749]

So are they not true ectotherms then, if they can regulate against external sources? Thats interesting..

[infernalis]

Formica, have you read the page I assembled with parasite (actual study information pertaining to the squamates known as Varanidae) data from Professor Sam Sweet, Nikola Pantchev & David Kirshner?

Monitor Lizard Forums - parasites

[formica]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Formica, have you read the page I assembled with parasite (actual study information pertaining to the squamates known as Varanidae) data from Professor Sam Sweet, Nikola Pantchev & David Kirshner?

Monitor Lizard Forums - parasites

yeah seen that - and it essentially says the same thing I did, non-native ''novel'' hosts may not be able to survive infection of parasites it has not evolved with - i was referring to all parasites, not just gastric worms

it needs to be considered, when collecting reptile prey locally, that the prey has a high likley hood of containing some form of parasite which infects said reptiles, there are a vast array of them, and as said in my previous post, and was confirmed in the artical, alien species may not have the protection it needs to deal with them or even to survive as a host.

There are other ways into the body aswell as the gut, which is notoriously difficult to infect in any animal, and these need particular attention when dealing with live prey; cuts/abrasions inside and out are the most obvious entry point, but also the nostrils, gum lining, glands, and the easiest access point, the eye, which is very vulnerable to infection

this is not really an issue when dealing with sterile feeders that are kept well away from potentially infectious reptiles and are known not to be infectious themselves

[formica]

Originally Posted by smy_749

So are they not true ectotherms then, if they can regulate against external sources? Thats interesting..

I'm not sure about that, things like blood pressure, heart rate and other physiological processes can affect the way heat is absorbed and released from the body (most obvious example is Chameleons which when basking, turn black on one side to absorb heat, and white on the other side to keep it inside the body)

cold blooded, or ectotherm simply means that the body doesnt burn energy to produce its own heat, it doesnt cover any adaptions which enable the animal to use external heat more defiantly

[franks]

Originally Posted by smy_749

So are they not true ectotherms then, if they can regulate against external sources? Thats interesting..

They cannot truly regulate against external sources. What Daniel Bennett wrote is that they can protect themselves from external sources by retaining the temps they gleaned from the sun longer as adults longer. A baby sav can only be out minutes at a ti me in full daylight heat for a few minutes. They take and loose heat extremely quickly. An adult takes a little longer to heat up and takes longer to loose his heat, so he can be out in full heat for greater periods of time, upwards of 30 minutes.
Glad to see you read the book formica, I know you'd enjoy it. You are very into the science of our hobby, and Daniel Bennett came closer than anyone else to providing real answers.

[franks]

Edit: Sorry, that was a bit confusing written on my phone. The jist of what I was trying to say is that they cannot regulate their temps, they can just withstand and withhold temps a little longer before they succumb to the influences of their climate.