Feeding a GTP that has reached maximum size

Mikoh4792 · 08-22-13, 09:59 PM

I know snakes will continue to die until they die but at 6 years of age, it probably will not be that noticeable.

Right now my gtp is big enough to eat large mice, or rat pups. Which would be better nutritionally? Are large mice just old mice that have more fat and are weak?

slowhite03 · 08-22-13, 11:05 PM

Rats are more meat and mice are more fatty from what I heard

snakeman879 · 08-23-13, 03:34 AM

Rats ar a better option in my opinion as they ar less fatty and have much more nutrients or so I beleve.

smy_749 · 08-23-13, 03:44 AM

The which is more nutritional debate is a long one. Chris72 has a nice thread somewhere. If hes not getting bigger and adult mice are a good size, i'd stick with those

**EL Ziggy** · 08-23-13, 08:26 AM

I've often wondered about the feeding of rats vs. mice. So far I haven't seen any solid evidence of the substantial nutritional benefits of either prey. Sounds more like a personal preference. All things being more or less equal, I feed my snakes mostly mice because they're a little less expensive, but I have decided to throw rats in their diets from time to time just for diversity and for an occasional larger meal. I guess it could also depend on the species of snake as I hear some do have a strong preference.

Big_V · 08-23-13, 07:18 PM

Daniel Natusch did a quick interview at the ICAS symposium and spoke of chondro eating habits. Apparently after all his observation he noticed that the GTP's dont eat birds. In fact the are attracted to the rodents eating what the birds have dropped below nests. Absolutely fascinating for feeding habits.They are coming down from the canopy and hitting these rodents a few feet off the ground. So, with that in mind we know for sure rodents are a very large % of their adult diet. Rats, in general have larger body mass and large skull. Now, pups in my mind are too small an item for an adult chondro, adult mice are usually what most of the large keepers in the US do from what I understand. The problem with anything bigger than an adult mouse, say small rat is that when that skull is hard its much harder for chondros, that are not hydrated properly to defecate. So this skull and heavier bone mass contributes to prolapses. That being said, there are different metabolic rates and different core temps, as well as different locale that seem to do better on lower temps, but still digest quite quick. The occasional small rat would be okay, but unless you are really comfortable with your husbandry and have a really good feel for that animal no harm. Rats for every meal, I personally wouldn't.

**lady_bug87** · 08-24-13, 10:51 AM

my 2yr old is on rat pups (25-30g)

How much does he weigh?

Mikoh4792 · 08-25-13, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big_V

The problem with anything bigger than an adult mouse, say small rat is that when that skull is hard its much harder for chondros, that are not hydrated properly to defecate. So this skull and heavier bone mass contributes to prolapses. That being said, there are different metabolic rates and different core temps, as well as different locale that seem to do better on lower temps, but still digest quite quick. The occasional small rat would be okay, but unless you are really comfortable with your husbandry and have a really good feel for that animal no harm. Rats for every meal, I personally wouldn't.

So in other words, rats are only bad if husbandry is off?

Mikoh4792 · 08-25-13, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

my 2yr old is on rat pups (25-30g)

How much does he weigh?

I'll have to find that out when I get a bigger scale. I just fed him a 20g adult mouse and It left a slight bulge.

Big_V · 08-25-13, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

I'll have to find that out when I get a bigger scale. I just fed him a 20g adult mouse and It left a slight bulge.

Im not saying rats are only bad if the husbandry is off, what I am saying is rats cause many problems so unless you feel you really know your animals and your husbandry, with dew points, temps, ambient humidity and how they all contribute to RI and other problems its best to stay with mice. If your creature has a slight bulge that is PERFECT stick with the mice.

Ive been keeping snakes since 14 years and chondros are a whole different ball game. Head over to MVF forum to check out some threads with much more specific threads. I have a feeling you wont be feeding rats after what people show you happens.

Mikoh4792 · 08-25-13, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big_V

Im not saying rats are only bad if the husbandry is off, what I am saying is rats cause many problems so unless you feel you really know your animals and your husbandry, with dew points, temps, ambient humidity and how they all contribute to RI and other problems its best to stay with mice. If your creature has a slight bulge that is PERFECT stick with the mice.

Ive been keeping snakes since 14 years and chondros are a whole different ball game. Head over to MVF forum to check out some threads with much more specific threads. I have a feeling you wont be feeding rats after what people show you happens.

Just wanted to get that clear. Yes I probably will just stick to mice since my chondro is pretty much done growing and has no need for bigger prey items.

Could you elaborate on this?

Quote:

unless you feel you really know your animals and your husbandry, with dew points, temps, ambient humidity and how they all contribute to RI

In the day the humidity is 100% for an hour or so after misting and I just let it dry out to about 65-70% next morning. Any input?

Big_V · 08-26-13, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Could you elaborate on this?

In the day the humidity is 100% for an hour or so after misting and I just let it dry out to about 65-70% next morning. Any input?

The higher humidity is for smaller animals usually. I think a lot of keepers have moved away from the Chondro handbook of years ago and you are starting to see an adjustment. First I would say, if defecation is normal eating is normal, the animal isnt fat, no RI dont mess with anything. Different locales seem to all be different in terms of what they like humidity and temp wise. Humidity could go down to 40 for a day or two with no issue. PNG and Indo both get massive wind currents that frequently take the jungle humidity out to sea.

If the animal is adult, you should probably only have to spray once or twice a week if the enclosure holds humidity well. The secret a lot of people are finding now is chondros like temps closer to 85 than the 90 Greg Maxwell used to keep them at years ago WITH LOTS of fresh water. Chondros will drink from water bowls very easily, not just off their coils.

If things are working keep it going.
Remember though, a fat chondro is a unnatural chondro. So stick with mice.

**lady_bug87** · 08-26-13, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big_V

The higher humidity is for smaller animals usually. I think a lot of keepers have moved away from the Chondro handbook of years ago and you are starting to see an adjustment. First I would say, if defecation is normal eating is normal, the animal isnt fat, no RI dont mess with anything. Different locales seem to all be different in terms of what they like humidity and temp wise. Humidity could go down to 40 for a day or two with no issue. PNG and Indo both get massive wind currents that frequently take the jungle humidity out to sea.

If the animal is adult, you should probably only have to spray once or twice a week if the enclosure holds humidity well. The secret a lot of people are finding now is chondros like temps closer to 85 than the 90 Greg Maxwell used to keep them at years ago WITH LOTS of fresh water. Chondros will drink from water bowls very easily, not just off their coils.

If things are working keep it going.
Remember though, a fat chondro is a unnatural chondro. So stick with mice.

I disagree with the bolded part. My female has been on rats for over a year. she has great muscle tone and is sleek and slender as she should be. Animals can get fat on mice just as easy as they can on rats. They key in my opinion is size and frequency.

Big_V · 08-27-13, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

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I disagree with the bolded part. My female has been on rats for over a year. she has great muscle tone and is sleek and slender as she should be. Animals can get fat on mice just as easy as they can on rats. They key in my opinion is size and frequency.

That's your opinion and to each their own, though I feel it is probably based more on your experience with YOUR animal then 1000s others have raised for 20 years before.

Im sticking with what Greg Stephens, Rico Walder, the Stewarts and the Chondro collective are doing and sticking with mice. They have more experience than anyone are strict mouse advocates.

Substituting 1 rat for two mice isnt a solution. Cage size, as well as feeding frequency also contribute to a 'slender' chondro but overall rats are not the food of choice for these animals among top breeders.

Mikoh4792 · 08-27-13, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big_V

Substituting 1 rat for two mice isnt a solution. Cage size, as well as feeding frequency also contribute to a 'slender' chondro

Could you elaborate on this?