Close Call with a King Cobra

[MDT]

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

Maybe MDT can help with this one but I think you guys are putting too much into a private keeper stocking their own antivenin. Paramedics wont administer, and i'm pretty sure the ER doc will be hesitant on using something you just brought in with you. Aaron- I can almost promise you if you showed up with your own CroFab at an ER well stocked with it they will be using theirs, so that seems like a waste of not only the keepers money, but the overall stock of antivenin to me.

If you brought me SEALED, UNOPENED, NOT-OUT-OF-DATE, BRAND NAME CroFab, I'd prob give it to you......anything beyond that, I'm giving the hospitals meds. Most docs (who know nothing about snakes and snakebites) would very likely would not. The zoo had protocols pre-established with the receiving ED for them to bring the species appropriate anti venom if there was a bite. But again, CroFab is cheap when compared to some crazy Asian elapid or something like that. And the CroFab will cost (last I checked) around $2500 per 2 vials (don't quote me on this one)....and, figure for a moderate envenomation around 12-18 vials....not cheap.

[RandyRhoads]

Originally Posted by MDT

If you brought me SEALED, UNOPENED, NOT-OUT-OF-DATE, BRAND NAME CroFab, I'd prob give it to you......anything beyond that, I'm giving the hospitals meds. . Most docs (who know nothing about snakes and snakebites) would very likely would not. .

That's what I figured. How many people want to risk their license/career by trusting something someone just brings in with them.

So tell me, why should I be purchasing CroFab beforehand again? Medical insurance wont pay for it beforehand, but it will after. If I were to spend thousands on it it would probablly expire before being needed, and if it was needed probablly wouldn't be useful....

[Will0W783]

RandyRhoads, I don't think there is any point in continuing this thread. We're just beating a dead horse... I have my viewpoints and opinions, Wayne and Frank and others have theirs. Neither of us will convince the others to sway their minds and I fear this thread will devolve into a "pissing match" like so many others.

If you wish to discuss venomous keeping with other keepers of the animals, there are venomous forums that are far more welcoming and knowledgeable on good captive care in private collections and proper safety measures. Lately, I feel that this forum may not be the best fit for those of us who choose to delve into the fringe aspects of herpetology and work with venomous snakes. I will continue to enjoy my animals legally and responsibly. I cannot control anyone else, but then again, gun laws and drug laws don't stop people from doing those things illegally. No matter what laws we put into effect, there will always be people who are going to take shortcuts and bypass procedures, whether it pertains to gun ownership, driving/car insurance, snake keeping, etc. I do not think that that means we need to punish the ones who do follow the rules.

[MDT]

Kim....since i have become active on this forum, i have been impressed with your knowledge and husbandry. you do not strike me as a "fringe" keeper...i do understand your frustration though. i also agree with your sentiments about punishing those who try to abide by the rules. there will always be some ***-hat that screws it up for everyone else....(your analogy of gun ownership has never been more true than today). i hope you continue to post and be active on the forum.

[Lankyrob]

This ^^^^^

[Will0W783]

Thank you MDT and Lankyrob. It's really hard for me to stay calm and collected with this particular issue; dealing with foolish people taking away my rights is a huge thorn in my side. I also am an avid firearms collector, particularly of historical military rifles. I've seen so much debate and many ill-informed arguments for both sides of the gun ownership debate, much as I've seen many good, but also many ill-informed arguments for both sides of the venomous debate. We cannot stop people who do not care about laws from breaking them. We can however, establish rules and procedures that protect and enable the law-abiding, conscientious citizens, and punish those who skirt the laws. Blanket bans tend not to solve the problems, as many people who would otherwise abide regulations get frustrated and say "oh well, guess I'm illegal now". Others have to tearfully give up livelihoods and passions because of the laws, while the lawbreakers continue doing what they want to anyway. That is all I have to say.

I don't think that I'll leave this forum; however, I'm a good bit less active than I used to be because I haven't liked certain things I see becoming the norm here. I see no need to exhaust my patience reading every idiotic newb thread by people who can't bother to look up an animal's basic care requirements before buying it, and I have no patience for circular arguments. Healthy debate is wonderful, but too few people are willing to try to see things from another's point of view or examine middle ground, so many threads become throat puffing fights. I'm here to learn, and to help others learn.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

If I were to spend thousands on it it would probablly expire before being needed, and if it was needed probablly wouldn't be useful....

RR....you're right on this one. Most of the anti venom does expire (thankfully) because bites are rare. this is a huge cost to many zoos. it would be interesting to have frank jump in here to address how his zoo handled anti venom and its cost. i can only speak about our local zoo and it is fairly small compared to larger cities.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

That's what I figured. How many people want to risk their license/career by trusting something someone just brings in with them.

So tell me, why should I be purchasing CroFab beforehand again? Medical insurance wont pay for it beforehand, but it will after. If I were to spend thousands on it it would probablly expire before being needed, and if it was needed probablly wouldn't be useful....

Randy, as Kim said we're all going to have to agree to disagree once again. That's the usual on how Kim and I debate these and I think in a few weeks I'll ask her for another round

As stated though, if you DID buy it, and it was as MDT described it then it would be used.

[beardeds4life]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Yes, but yet it costs a fortune to buy a ferrari yet people still do it and it deters people as well. I think this is my point.

Ferrari's and antivenin have nothing to do with each other. These are two totally different things. And a fortune to one person isnt always a fortune to the person with the ferrari

Anyway Kim, knowing that you collect firearms I can honestly say that you are the first woman I have met that keeps firearms AND venomous snakes. You are awesome!!!!

[Will0W783]

Thanks beardeds4life! Aaron, bring it on- I greatly enjoy our debates.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by beardeds4life

Ferrari's and antivenin have nothing to do with each other. These are two totally different things. And a fortune to one person isnt always a fortune to the person with the ferrari

Anyway Kim, knowing that you collect firearms I can honestly say that you are the first woman I have met that keeps firearms AND venomous snakes. You are awesome!!!!

You clearly missed my point.

Kim, I plan to. I will wait til after the holidays though.

[Will0W783]

sounds good

[bronxzoofrank]

Thanks to MDT, Aaron (apologies to those I've missed, rushing here...)for providing useful factual info and pointing out where my words were quoted out of context; I had lost interest in continuing, but am glad you took up the slack;

Re doctors, etc..most will not administer antivenin w/o an ID by a herpetologist, zookeeper, etc; this holds even where expertise had been developed by doctors in both snake biology and snakebite treatment, i.e. Jacobi Hosp in the Bronx; in fact, antivenin is not generally kept in hospitals; protocol in NYC is that keepers, curators, etc are contacted when a bite occurs; they must then get to the Bx Zoo where the antivenin is located, bring those that will most likely be needed based on the incident description, go to the hospital, or home, or police station where snake is located, ID snake, then go to hosp.; we were assisted in this by NYPD cars & helicopters, ambulances etc (at great expense to taxpayers as few victims in position to pay), but even so this procedure greatly increases the time that elapses from bite to antivenin administration, but those who established the protocol thought it worth the risk; I trust i need not go into the implications for private owners,...;

doctors in certain western US states, Australia and elsewhere perhaps, who have developed expertise, may administer antivenin w/o above protocol where common native snakes are involved; otherwise not...as mentioned, venom evolves rather quickly in some species, and this can affect treatment choice; timber rattlesnake venom in northern populations varies markedly from those in the south, even more so over the range of certain western rattlesnakes, etc...; this type of info must be available as it is learned; internet searches are not appropriate - an established network of researchers, doctors, herpetologists etc is needed. then there are unstudied species, etc...

Re the comment as to how expenses are handled at Bx Zoo; the zoo purchases antivenin, which as mentioned can be a difficult process even when payment is made; long delays, govt red tape (FDA and many others involved) and so on complicate the process. In 4 of the incidents I responded to (all involving the same wealthy individual) reimbursement was likely made by the victim for meds, hosp care, etc. Criminal penalties were not imposed as the suburban community he lived in did not ban venomous snakes (it does now, of course). In all other of my cases, and the vast majority of those dealt with by co-workers and numerous colleagues, the victims could not pay for the antivenin, or, I imagine, most of the followup hospital care or the criminal fines imposed. So the expense was born by the zoos/zoo donors and, re the police expenses, etc, by the taxpayers (who of course also pay to house and feed the victims if jail time results).

Re children - this is an important point, thanks for raising; I know of several incidents where action was taken by city/local child welfare agencies; no matter where in the US an incident occurs, CW agencies are always., w/o fail, contacted if children are present; action taken varies. Children have been killed by escaped large constrictors; I cannot recall any venomous incidents right now (yes, children have been killed by dogs, cows, pigs etc...hopefully no need to continue in this vein...)

Re dangers to emergency service persons, etc...In one incident I attended, a police officer was bitten by a snake, which was never recovered, in the course of searching a crime scene; the owner had venomous snakes and could not be trusted as to the ID of the individual that had bitten the officer; the officer was not envenomated (the stress of the situation caused several classic symptoms, however!).

In another, police officers responding to a burgler alarm encountered 30+ rattlesnakes, most poorly caged, 2 at large. No one was bitten, but keepers searching within walls etc are of course at risk...

I once had to intervene when an enraged owner objected, physically, to the removal of his animals; this occurred when the police officers on site had been called away for a more pressing emergency; I was unscathed, physically and legally (even criminals can sometimes sue those they attack!), but had to waste a good deal of time with reports, etc. Obviously, researches, zookeepers, police and others legitimately working with ven snakes resent and are endangered by antivenin shortages that sometimes occur after victims are treated. I could go on...

Re the comment as to the suggestion that my experience with the Bx Zoo, altho long, might not have been all that useful as I hadn't run into private keepers well prepared for a bite: it's easy enough to check into this online; added to the the 21 years with the Bx Zoo is 19 years with other zoos, museums and some of the best known (legendary to old timers) animal importers in the US, and work (field/zoos) in Venezuela, Japan, Costa Rica, Mexico and elsewhere....

I'm not going to respond to this thread after this point, except if assistance is requested (note: this is not arrogance - I have and hopefully will continue to help others, as I have been helped innumerable times by others in those innumerable areas in which I lack expertise) or new facts are posted (note: not arrogant - facts can and should be distinguished from fiction or opinions based on misconceptions or poor research, and they are more important than such, at least here).

I usually provide general answers to venomous snake care questions elsewhere or in person, and let it go at that. I felt compelled to expand on my answers here because, early on, there were disturbing comments about being backed into a corner by a king cobra, that such was not all that dangerous because a "mentor" was present, questions re tick removal from the head of a king cobra, and so on (or words to that affect..). I believe it would have been irresponsible not to reply, but I've done all that can be done at this point.

I'll post elsewhere on this site, and here re venomous snake conservation etc, but the insulting language used by some here has convinced me not to continue with this thread.
I was labelled arrogant, and even came across a post where 2 people were discussing my supposed arrogance among themselves! At least 1 sophomoric, crudely worded comment was deleted by the administrator. I've not run into this in any of the 3,000+ posts on my blog, or elsewhere. I criticized people's dangerous habits, knowledge of the subject, etc.... not personality. I'm sure all here are familiar with the personality traits, common habits, levels of expertise, interests (some illegal in some states, or everywhere) that are said to be common among private ven snake keepers. I myself have dealt with people who indeed have fit these profiles..but I did not raise those points, and I will not expand upon them now.

At one point it was said that I "threatened" people with the loss of their collections (or words to that effect); I'm not a legislator, and so have no authority to change laws. I have testified before fact-finding legislative bodies, etc., and had written (here) what I knew to be true - most states/municipalities will likely legislate against ven snake ownership, and when bites occur this often happens rather quickly. I have no interest in the "loss of rights" type concerns that seem to inflame many (not just re snakes, of course) as I am quite happy with how such matters are handled in the USA.

One comment intimated that I believed private keepers to be "lowly" or words to that effect. A casual review of my work will reveal this to a completely unfounded statement. Hundreds of my articles (see here, ie: Reptile Hobbyists - Helping or Hindering Reptile and Amphibian Conservation? That Reptile Blog) dwell on the value of hobbyists; in the forward of my first book, the BX Zoo's volunteer org is given as much acknowledgement as is the zoo's upper management; in other books hobbyist friends receive greater attention than do prof colleagues and so on...each of my books contain natural history info, but all are written for private keepers, as are my Sierra Club Know Card sets, innumerable talks, etc. When I was working for a certain zoo, this type of work was to my detriment, professionally. My blog articles, even those dealing with zoo animals, conservation, etc, are sponsored by a company that sells pets and pet supplies. Again, I could go on...

Best regards, Frank

[MDT]

Thanks frank for responding, and you confirmed what I suspected about the larger facilities. And again, I never got an arrogance thing. You bring a level of expertise that a lot of us don't have (at least I know I don't)....

Even with established protocols under the best of circumstances, significant envenomations are a cluster (just as is any "weird" event). I happened to be on duty when a guy at our zoo was pretty significantly envenomated by a Gila monster. The ED scene was ridiculous. People crowded into the treatment room to see the "bite victim". I think they thought he was gonna turn into some lizard or something. The patient was pretty sick and required intensive intervention (obviously no anti venom, but dropping blood pressure and airway compromise)...trying to gain scene control was interesting.

Anyway....though I probably won't ever keep venomous animals, I love hearing about those that do. Hopefully we can all agree that we need to maintain impeccable safety standards and everyone can stay safe.

[bronxzoofrank]

Originally Posted by MDT

Thanks frank for responding, and you confirmed what I suspected about the larger facilities. And again, I never got an arrogance thing. You bring a level of expertise that a lot of us don't have (at least I know I don't)....

Even with established protocols under the best of circumstances, significant envenomations are a cluster (just as is any "weird" event). I happened to be on duty when a guy at our zoo was pretty significantly envenomated by a Gila monster. The ED scene was ridiculous. People crowded into the treatment room to see the "bite victim". I think they thought he was gonna turn into some lizard or something. The patient was pretty sick and required intensive intervention (obviously no anti venom, but dropping blood pressure and airway compromise)...trying to gain scene control was interesting.

Anyway....though I probably won't ever keep venomous animals, I love hearing about those that do. Hopefully we can all agree that we need to maintain impeccable safety standards and everyone can stay safe.

That's an interesting report, thank you. Many treat Gila's with little caution; in zoos, even in the more cautious zoos, they are routinely moved by hand, via the tail; while adults can be safely grabbed by the tail, youngsters can swing up and bite if grasped in this manner...I know of 2 zookeepers who somehow missed out on learning this "fine point".

Best, Frank