Stage 3 (Dry Season)

[formica]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

It is relevant because one animal (or 3) can be an exception to a rule. Just like a single person can drive drunk every single weekend and never experience an incident and then another guy does it once and kills someone.

yes of course there are exceptions, I posted a thread called ''anomalies'', about that very topic, in relation to the survey. 3 exceptions on the other hand, is something worth investigating.

Besides, you are taking surveys from around the globe I presume.

yes, worldwide

Are the 6 animals you mentioned being fed the same diets?

yes, 50/50 inverts/whole prey (question is in survey)

Held in the same enclosures?

yes, all enclosures, apart from the oldest, where 6ft or larger, with soil/sand substrate for burrows. the oldest had soil/sand which was not deep enough for burrows. all had the same ambient humidity of 60%, all had the same basking spot tempreture (except the oldest, at 120), and all where provided with UV

(various questions in survey to determine husbandry)

Given the exact same barometric pressures?

this question was not asked, if the consensus is that this would be an important question to ask, then it will be added to the list for when the final validation take place.

Were they all collected/bought from the same place?

so far all but 5 entries have been Wild Farmed or Wild Caught Hatchlings, 3 where CB, and 2 listed as unknown origin

Were they all raised from babies or were some "rescues" some months down the line?

not specifically asked, can be added later on depending on consensus regarding its importance.

Have all of them been regularly vet checked and a necropsy done to see cause of death?

3 of the Savs entered into the database as deceased had been examined by a vet after death, 2 others had known medical problems diagnosed by vets prior to death.

(questions relating to death and professional consultations are included in the survey)

Maybe those 3 had cancer or some sort of illness that had nothing to do with how they were kept.

one Sav died at the age of 7 from cancer, the 3 listed above all died suddenly but cause of death was not found

(cause of death, as determined by a vet, is asked in the survey)

All factors that could change any "scientific" research.

there are far more factors than that, as many as possible where included in the survey to get as clear a picture as possible of the husbandry, source of the animal, veterinary involvement and other areas


i'm not the idiot you would like to think I am

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, considering your monitor is still only around ONE YEAR old (or less?), to suggest it "survived in good health" is ludicrous, it`s also meaningless because you have no idea what "healthy" means for any captive Varanid.....

the specialist vet, who carried out the examination and blood tests, before and after, knows a allot more about what healthy means, than either myself, or you.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by formica

yes of course there are exceptions, I posted a thread called ''anomalies'', about that very topic, in relation to the survey. 3 exceptions on the other hand, is something worth investigating.

You are welcome to spend your time doing whatever you want but 3, out of an ENTIRE world population begs investigation? I personally disagree.

yes, 50/50 inverts/whole prey (question is in survey)

Ah but what specific inverts are being fed? Are the feeders coming from the same source and fed the same food items across the board? Are the feeders all kept the same from the various places around the world?

See. This just brings more questions to the table than answers.

yes, all enclosures, apart from the oldest, where 6ft or larger, with soil/sand substrate for burrows. the oldest had soil/sand which was not deep enough for burrows. all had the same ambient humidity of 60%, all had the same basking spot tempreture (except the oldest, at 120), and all where provided with UV

(various questions in survey to determine husbandry)

They are not all kept the same. Why? You ranged the enclosures from 6ft to larger. That would indicate that some were kept with more room than others. Were the soils all brought from the same place? Did all of them have soil/sand at the same depth? Were all the soils bought or dug up from areas around their places?

this question was not asked, if the consensus is that this would be an important question to ask, then it will be added to the list for when the final validation take place.

The barometric pressure question I brought up matters because it is rumoured (nothing scientific about it) that in the ball python world the females/males can sense the pressure change. In general, it changes with a storm and everyone finds that these animals breed better during said storms. The thought process is that it triggers something in the snakes that has to do with the rainy season in Africa. The rainy season in Africa is breeding season for ball pythons. So if it's believed that ball pythons sense it and are affected it by it it could mean that savannah monitors MAY have the possibility as well. Pure conjecture on my part though and I'm okay with that.

so far all but 5 entries have been Wild Farmed or Wild Caught Hatchlings, 3 where CB, and 2 listed as unknown origin

Were they all farmed from the same place? Were they all wild caught from the same area? Were the farmed ones fed the same items as they are getting here? Could this be a factor? yes? No? Maybe?

not specifically asked, can be added later on depending on consensus regarding its importance.

I would believe knowing if the animal had bad husbandry given beforehand would be an important factor. Considering it could affect lifespan. Diet and the like...

3 of the Savs entered into the database as deceased had been examined by a vet after death, 2 others had known medical problems diagnosed by vets prior to death.

(questions relating to death and professional consultations are included in the survey)



one Sav died at the age of 7 from cancer, the 3 listed above all died suddenly but cause of death was not found

(cause of death, as determined by a vet, is asked in the survey)



there are far more factors than that, as many as possible where included in the survey to get as clear a picture as possible of the husbandry, source of the animal, veterinary involvement and other areas


i'm not the idiot you would like to think I am



the specialist vet, who carried out the examination and blood tests, before and after, knows a allot more about what healthy means, than either myself, or you.

So "natural causes" was the determined factor in the 3 inconclusive deaths? Were these the young ones in "optimal" conditions or "cool/dry" seasons?

You are right. A lot of people know more about "healthy" than I do. The question to ask though is are all the animals seeing the same qualified vet? Are they seeing different vets with different levels of experience with not only savannah monitors but reptiles in general?

There are MANY cases where the vet believes they know more about reptiles when in fact they do not. I would believe my questions about their abilities would be apt.

My point is simple. There are FAR too many factors involved that are not accounted for in your experiment to determine anything more than conjecture at the expense of some animals.

As I said at the start by all means do as you please I am just pointing out areas of needed improvement to garner any real knowledge from this "experiment" for anyone involved or reading this.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Y...I brought up matters because it is rumoured (nothing scientific about it)...Pure conjecture on my part though and I'm okay with that....

did you really just use that as part of an argument against an idea which is claimed to have no scientific basis? (despite the fact, that there is far more scientific evidence to suggest that dry season may well important)

So "natural causes" was the determined factor in the 3 inconclusive deaths? Were these the young ones in "optimal" conditions or "cool/dry" seasons?

again, No cause of death was found, and each one was kept at ''optimum''., if you dont know what optimum is, then read Infernalis' website.

You are right. A lot of people know more about "healthy" than I do. The question to ask though is are all the animals seeing the same qualified vet? Are they seeing different vets with different levels of experience with not only savannah monitors but reptiles in general?

that point was not directed at you, hence the quote.

As I said at the start by all means do as you please I am just pointing out areas of needed improvement to garner any real knowledge from this "experiment" for anyone involved or reading this.

once again, I never claimed this was a scientific experiment.

as for the survey, of course there are improvements which can be made, there are ALWAYS improvements which can be made.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by formica

did you really just use that as part of an argument against an idea which is claimed to have no scientific basis? (despite the fact, that there is far more scientific evidence to suggest that dry season may well important)

I never said there's no scientific basis it's just that it's full of holes to come to any conclusive information. From your updates it's clear that you are coming to conclusions based on your simple findings.

I would also think if you were trying to have a scientific basis then you would account for all factors, such as the barometric pressure I mentioned, and have done the necessary research prior to see if there's any grounds for it.

again, No cause of death was found, and each one was kept at ''optimum''., if you dont know what optimum is, then read Infernalis' website.

It's why I posed questions. How do you know the person doing the necropsy was competent? Was it the same person across the board? It's why I mentioned the vet aspect of this "study" or whatever you call it.

You've brought in a lot of extra factors and trying to draw conclusions based on what you personally want to see. It's faulty at the ground level.

The foundation of your "study" is actually flawed. Why? You have no idea if anyone filling out the survey is lying or not. You have never met these people or know much about them. They could be lying because they don't want to be seen as a bad keeper.

All the best but as it currently stands you should go back to the drawing board or just stop.

I also noticed you didn't refute or respond to any of the other points I made. I take it you have no rebuttal to the again the fact that these are fundamental flaws within your "study" or whatever. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but at this point you're simply putting an animal (at least) at risk for you to prove some silly point.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I never said there's no scientific basis it's just that it's full of holes to come to any conclusive information. From your updates it's clear that you are coming to conclusions based on your simple findings.

I would also think if you were trying to have a scientific basis then you would account for all factors, such as the barometric pressure I mentioned, and have done the necessary research prior to see if there's any grounds for it.





It's why I posed questions. How do you know the person doing the necropsy was competent? Was it the same person across the board? It's why I mentioned the vet aspect of this "study" or whatever you call it.

You've brought in a lot of extra factors and trying to draw conclusions based on what you personally want to see. It's faulty at the ground level.

The foundation of your "study" is actually flawed. Why? You have no idea if anyone filling out the survey is lying or not. You have never met these people or know much about them. They could be lying because they don't want to be seen as a bad keeper.

All the best but as it currently stands you should go back to the drawing board or just stop.

I also noticed you didn't refute or respond to any of the other points I made. I take it you have no rebuttal to the again the fact that these are fundamental flaws within your "study" or whatever. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but at this point you're simply putting an animal (at least) at risk for you to prove some silly point.

what study? who said I was doing a scientific study?

of course I dont know if anyone is lying, how does anyone know if someone is lying? frankly I believe that you are picking holes for arguments sake, not because you actually give a toss about this discussion.

ALL of the information will be validated once it reaches a large enough data set, systems are in place to ensure this can happen and provide a useful starting point for further discussions on the topic.

at least I am doing something and finding out more information, rather than simply relying on a dogmatic approach which completely ignores 60% of a Savs life cycles.

what are YOU doing? other than arguing the toss on the internet...

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by formica

what study? who said I was doing a scientific study?

of course I dont know if anyone is lying, how does anyone know if someone is lying? frankly I believe that you are picking holes for arguments sake, not because you actually give a toss about this discussion.

ALL of the information will be validated once it reaches a large enough data set, systems are in place to ensure this can happen and provide a useful starting point for further discussions on the topic.

at least I am doing something and finding out more information, rather than simply relying on a dogmatic approach which completely ignores 60% of a Savs life cycles.

what are YOU doing? other than arguing the toss on the internet...

I don't know what you call it so I put "study" in quotation marks and called it "whatever you call it" as well. I have no clue what you are doing and "study" or "experiment" is the best I can use to describe it.

See you have missed every point I made here. There is no system in place to ensure any useful starting point for further discussion. There will not be a large enough data set because I have pointed out many flaws to the way things are currently being conducted. Far too many variables.

You seem to dislike my posts as you don't respond to the actual points but now simply saying I'm here "poking holes" for arguments sake. I do not need to poke holes because you already had them.
Secondly, am I not allowed to discuss? Is that not what YOU say gets people to change for the better? If no one is pushing against what's being said then how do grow for the better? Or does this only count for when YOU do it to others?

Also, before you come tell me that that is what you're doing with your little "thing" (pushing against the status quo) I would like to say that is fine but you need to remove your blinders and fix the foundation and plug the holes I pointed out. By all means, do something worthwhile but ensure it actually makes sense before doing it.




Here's a good example of something simple. Brian and BHB (big snake breeder) wanted to do a small "experiment" that he determined was on a small scale and NOT to be taken as the be all end all to snake feeding.

He wanted to see what kind of feeding regime would affect some corn snake growth. Different prey sizes and whatever else...
Anyway, he took corns ALL from the same clutch. Kept them ALL on the same rack system in the same room in the exact same manner. Fed them the same prey item (various sizes and frequency which was the experiment) which he got from the same supplier feeding the same thing to all the adults.

That's already much better than yours. He controlled everything he possibly could to exclude it from the findings. You should learn to do this as I have pointed out. Many factors you have overlooked.

[formica]

you have no idea what systems are in place
you haven't even read the Survey to see what is actually being asked
you havent seen the plan for validation
you havent read the discussions on additional data collection and ensuring that the results are validated as well as possible

It is a Survey, not a study. You know nothing about it, and are arguing about it with a preconception about what it is.

I have answered all the points you made, which I felt where relevenet to the SURVEY, and nothing more, because I do not believe that you have a genuine interest in the subject, you just want to troll the thread.

thats the last reply you are going to get from me, unless you have a genuinely interesting point to make about the topic at hand, ie, dry season and savannah monitors, in which case I will discuss with you with enthusiasm.

[KORBIN5895]

Why are you people still talking to him? He doesn't care about anything but proving himself right, even of it means the health of his sav.

[Terranaut]

I have to agree that the sample size is way to small to use as any sort of guide or direction for making changes to the care of a persons sav. I think just posting info on longer living captive savs is a good idea. Share what you do. Let others pull from your data. Remember people used to keep boas on pine shavings at one point....look at husbandry practices today.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by formica

you have no idea what systems are in place
you haven't even read the Survey to see what is actually being asked
you havent seen the plan for validation
you havent read the discussions on additional data collection and ensuring that the results are validated as well as possible

It is a Survey, not a study. You know nothing about it, and are arguing about it with a preconception about what it is.

I have answered all the points you made, which I felt where relevenet to the SURVEY, and nothing more, because I do not believe that you have a genuine interest in the subject, you just want to troll the thread.

thats the last reply you are going to get from me, unless you have a genuinely interesting point to make about the topic at hand, ie, dry season and savannah monitors, in which case I will discuss with you with enthusiasm.

Is your study not about cool/dry season being a better set up for captive savannahs? Did you not just do this with your own as an experiment? I believe I read a thread about you starting it.

I have an interest in this because it's further knowledge about reptiles in general. You are making a generalization that I do not seek out additional information about reptiles. Of course this intrigues me.

You have not answered my points because you never answered the questions about feeders, enclosure sizes or qualified vetrinary care. You used the survey, that it asks these questions, to varify your beliefs.

You use this survey to validate your view of this cool/dry season thing you have attempted. That is all.

You say I am here to "troll" but I have asked many pertinent questions in regards to this "survey". You do not like me asking probing questions because it doesn't agree with you.

I have made my interests known by asking questions about feeders, vets and the like and you ignore them as "trolling attempts". You never once tried to answer them simply referring to "I do not know the survey".

The only thing I do know is if you're taking a global survey to help show some view of yours that at best it's inconclusive based on the flaws I have presented.
You did not refute or respond to my example of a "survey" or "study" or "experiment" done by Brian. He wanted information like you do and like you attempting the cool/dry season thing with your animal he did the same with his in his own way. The difference is he took precautions to ensure results could not be skewed by other factors.

I do not need to respond again because you refuse to engage in discussion and throw me aside as a "troll" in which I assure you I am not. If there's anything you want to ask or say to me you only need read previous posts of mine to get your answer as I believe we will end up running in circles.

All the best to you Formica. If you wish for additional help feel free to PM me.

[mdfmonitor]

Good intentions, but it's so hard to translate keepers own perception of their husbandry into actual fact & results.

[Terranaut]

I would say old and disease free would be the only indicators for this

[Rob_H]

Great idea for a study. Very interested to hear the results of the survey so please keep us updated. Regarding your monitor: the conditions are well within the experiences found in the wild, so assuming you're keeping a close eye on its health as you said (maybe you can post photos up here so people can judge for themselves every now and then?) there's no problem. Well done for taking some initiative.

[Pirarucu]

I will stick with what I said before. This is risky and unnecessary. I have no problem with you doing it, as it isn't something they can't handle if done properly. However, I will take issue with your claiming success after a single cycle with one animal, especially when you have not kept one before and thus have no baseline from which to determine whether you have been successful or not. That is like someone keeping their first Sav alive for a year in a glass tank on sand with no heat and then claiming that is the best way to keep them. Nothing (visibly) bad happened yet, so it must be the right way to do things. In addition, you cite several of your survey results that seem to support your conclusion. However, this is an online survey, with no way of knowing whether the statements made by those taking it are anywhere close to reality. Perhaps they are lying, perhaps they are misinformed, or possibly they are interpreting some of the questions or answers differently than you are. Who knows? They could be telling the truth, but we have no way of knowing that for sure. You say you will be validating the results once you have a large data set. Until you have successfully, without a doubt, verified all of those reports, why don't we restrain ourselves from drawing conclusions from them? Which brings me to my final issue. You are not conducting a test, nor are you drawing fair results from your survey. You have decided for yourself what the answer is, and seem to be paying attention only to the results that support that conclusion, the only verified example of which is your own. Again, congrats. Your sav didn't die after a month or two of suboptimal conditions. Here's a medal.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

...I will take issue with your claiming success after a single cycle with one animal

why don't we restrain ourselves from drawing conclusions from them?

I have not posted up any conclusions! perhaps you assumed that I had, based on the fact that others have inferred conclucions on my post and then argued against said conclusions, which I myself had not written.

nor did I claim success, but simply reported that my Sav is in good health after a short time under the conditions as described in the original post.

let me repost it for you to clarify:

Originally Posted by formica

Happy to report that after a short dry season simulation, my Sav is in perfect health, some weight loss, as to be expected, (1.02kg before, 1.012kg after)

now that the humidity has been increased outside of his high-humidity box, activity and apatite has increased significantly over the last week.

I have added lots of seeds (bird seed and grass seed), and enclosure is gettng ''rain'' every day in the afternoon, I havent increased feeding yet, I will do that once the seeds start to sprout, although there are a fair few crickets in the enclosure anyway that have been happily breeding away

15 this year - according to the results so far on the Savannah Monitor Longevity Survey, it has been kept with access to Sunlight for UV, a 120f basking spot, and, both cooler and drier seasonal variations.

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

You use this survey to validate your view of this cool/dry season thing you have attempted. That is all.

no i didnt, I answered a question which Terranaut had posed, with the information I had available - all I have done thru this entire debacle, is ask questions about currently accepted practices and how it reflects the needs of Savs based on their evolutionary adaptions, I want to know how the two compare, and am well aware of the scientific process required to gain conclusive answers, and am also aware, and made it clear that I was aware, of the limitations that all of this brings up

until someone with enough money to support 50 or more Savs thru their entire life, and all the veterinary bills required for testing, so that proper number crunching can be done, well there is nothing additional I can do is there!

Once the survey is complete, it can be used as a basis of further study into the monitors which have been added into it, but right now, no one has a clue really how old monitors are getting and under what conditions, just lots of speculation and anecdotal evidence. (edit: apart from one study into the way in which high basking temps reduce the risk of developing many common Sav health conditions, eg kidney failure)


until someone proves to me, that the 60% of a Savs life cycle which is being ignored by current husbandry techniques, is not important, I CANNOT believe that it is not important, there is not a single animal on the planet (studied so far) which does not benefit from its periods of dormancy, or does not rely on the cycles of season in order to survive and be healthy, regardless of whether those seasons bring plenty of food or apparently extreme hardship.

Originally Posted by Rob_H

Great idea for a study. Very interested to hear the results of the survey so please keep us updated. Regarding your monitor: the conditions are well within the experiences found in the wild, so assuming you're keeping a close eye on its health as you said (maybe you can post photos up here so people can judge for themselves every now and then?) there's no problem. Well done for taking some initiative.

before and after pics would have been a good idea!

Originally Posted by Terranaut

I would say old and disease free would be the only indicators for this

definitely

Originally Posted by mdfmonitor

Good intentions, but it's so hard to translate keepers own perception of their husbandry into actual fact & results.

true, but I dont have a zoo, a uni or a (herd?) of Savs at my disposal, so I do what I can