Stage 3 (Dry Season)

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by formica

why is this irrelevant argument being brought up again? what has it got to do with anything I am doing?

Or is it just another diversionary tactic, because the oldest Sav in the survey is 15 years old and has been kept with dry and cool cycles....its funny how people are able to ignore things like this to suit their own agenda. but, its also a predictable response when dogmatic and unscientific opinions are held, esp when they are questioned.

Here are some facts for you:

15 year old Sav, kept with dry and cool seasons in between ''optimal'', still alive today
9 year old Sav, kept with cool season in between ''optimal'', still alive today
8 year old Sav, kept with cool season in between ''optimal'', still alive today

additionally, 3 Savs died at ~5 years old, despite being kept in ''optimal'' conditions.


I hope over the next 9-12 months much more data can be collected, the target of 1000 animals is a long way off, but the survey continues.

It is relevant because one animal (or 3) can be an exception to a rule. Just like a single person can drive drunk every single weekend and never experience an incident and then another guy does it once and kills someone.

Is the person who has never had a crash still right that driving drunk is safe and doesn't cause incidents? No they are not. A single (or 3) animals don't make a brand new rule.

Besides, you are taking surveys from around the globe I presume. Are the 6 animals you mentioned being fed the same diets? Held in the same enclosures? Given the exact same barometric pressures? Were they all collected/bought from the same place? Were they all raised from babies or were some "rescues" some months down the line? Have all of them been regularly vet checked and a necropsy done to see cause of death? Maybe those 3 had cancer or some sort of illness that had nothing to do with how they were kept. Happens to all animals, why would savannah monitors be any different?

All factors that could change any "scientific" research.

By all means, go ahead and do it because you will anyway but until you are able to control pretty much every facet of the "experiment" it will never prove anything.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

It is relevant because one animal (or 3) can be an exception to a rule. Just like a single person can drive drunk every single weekend and never experience an incident and then another guy does it once and kills someone.

yes of course there are exceptions, I posted a thread called ''anomalies'', about that very topic, in relation to the survey. 3 exceptions on the other hand, is something worth investigating.

Besides, you are taking surveys from around the globe I presume.

yes, worldwide

Are the 6 animals you mentioned being fed the same diets?

yes, 50/50 inverts/whole prey (question is in survey)

Held in the same enclosures?

yes, all enclosures, apart from the oldest, where 6ft or larger, with soil/sand substrate for burrows. the oldest had soil/sand which was not deep enough for burrows. all had the same ambient humidity of 60%, all had the same basking spot tempreture (except the oldest, at 120), and all where provided with UV

(various questions in survey to determine husbandry)

Given the exact same barometric pressures?

this question was not asked, if the consensus is that this would be an important question to ask, then it will be added to the list for when the final validation take place.

Were they all collected/bought from the same place?

so far all but 5 entries have been Wild Farmed or Wild Caught Hatchlings, 3 where CB, and 2 listed as unknown origin

Were they all raised from babies or were some "rescues" some months down the line?

not specifically asked, can be added later on depending on consensus regarding its importance.

Have all of them been regularly vet checked and a necropsy done to see cause of death?

3 of the Savs entered into the database as deceased had been examined by a vet after death, 2 others had known medical problems diagnosed by vets prior to death.

(questions relating to death and professional consultations are included in the survey)

Maybe those 3 had cancer or some sort of illness that had nothing to do with how they were kept.

one Sav died at the age of 7 from cancer, the 3 listed above all died suddenly but cause of death was not found

(cause of death, as determined by a vet, is asked in the survey)

All factors that could change any "scientific" research.

there are far more factors than that, as many as possible where included in the survey to get as clear a picture as possible of the husbandry, source of the animal, veterinary involvement and other areas


i'm not the idiot you would like to think I am