The UVB Varanid debate !

[V87]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

To me the question is..Does the effort and money spent on these bulbs ACTUALLY translate into healthier animals. We're still talking man made UV bulbs that only provide a tiny fraction of the beneficial elements of the sun.
To me there are more important factors in the lives of most captives. I personally would rather spend my money and time providing larger more useful enclosures than dropping hundreds or thousands a year on questionable bulbs.
I don't deny that the animals obviously have evolved to utilize UV, for me, I have not seen positive results from these bulbs, only from better overall conditions for the animals. The problem is that many will slap a bulb in a shite enclosure and feel like they have it covered. Again, none of the long term breeders that I hang with bother to use any of these bulbs, yet are more successful overall than those who do use them.
I've used many of the available UV bulbs and have never seen any noticeable difference in my animals health, coloration, appetite or behavior, so I stopped worrying or thinking about them long ago. Just my 2 cents.
Best.

But if you are giving the correct husbandry ... And you have a large enclosure ...

And If these bulbs give any benefit then why not .....

They are not a miracle cure for everything no but any advantage is an advantage ...

We all knw that many monitors will breed in a tiny rub but this does not make them healthy not saying a UVB or UVA bulb will but it will help .... As will a large enclosure so if you can provide both for the better keepers with already good husbandry is this not something you want to add as a bonus to your captive animals .... ?

IMO I feel your statement to be old school and becoming out dated ... Just saying its sounds like you don't want to see the positives rather than them not being there

If it has but one advantage ... Why not have it ?

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by mdfmonitor

Just put a couple of compact uvb bulbs in this am on one side, need a daylight bulb to hide some of the green light though!

Hi Mark, there were problems with some of the compact UVB bulbs a few years ago, partly because they were positioned too close to the animal, also, they weren`t all very effective.
Here`s some info, you may have seen it before but if so, worth another look anyway. Note it needs updating...
UV Lighting for Reptiles: A new problem with high UVB output fluorescent compact lamps and tubes?

[formica]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi Mark, there were problems with some of the compact UVB bulbs a few years ago, partly because they were positioned too close to the animal, also, they weren`t all very effective.
Here`s some info, you may have seen it before but if so, worth another look anyway. Note it needs updating...
UV Lighting for Reptiles: A new problem with high UVB output fluorescent compact lamps and tubes?

the CFL's in question, where redesigned since that article was last updated, some years ago...i'm sure an article talking about the changes has been posted on this forum somewhere

[B_Aller]

Originally Posted by V87

But if you are giving the correct husbandry ... And you have a large enclosure ...

And If these bulbs give any benefit then why not .....

They are not a miracle cure for everything no but any advantage is an advantage ...

We all knw that many monitors will breed in a tiny rub but this does not make them healthy not saying a UVB or UVA bulb will but it will help .... As will a large enclosure so if you can provide both for the better keepers with already good husbandry is this not something you want to add as a bonus to your captive animals .... ?

IMO I feel your statement to be old school and becoming out dated ... Just saying its sounds like you don't want to see the positives rather than them not being there

If it has but one advantage ... Why not have it ?

You've got a lot of if's maybe's and unknowns there, kinda proves my point.
IF..you are giving correct husbandry
IF their is any benefit
How exactly has it been proven to be a bonus?

I am old school and out dated, but my positives are generating from F1 to F5 monitors by the hundreds and setting longevity records for the species I keep, not a bunch of maybe's and promises from people who want to sell me something.

If I could see the results, I'd be all over it, I just have my doubts and a limited budget.


Personally I don't know that many monitors will breed in tiny tubs, my experience has been the exact opposite, but then I've only been keeping and breeding monitors for 21 years.

If it has one advantage.....what is it?
Thanks.

[V87]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

You've got a lot of if's maybe's and unknowns there, kinda proves my point.
IF..you are giving correct husbandry
IF their is any benefit
How exactly has it been proven to be a bonus?

I am old school and out dated, but my positives are generating from F1 to F5 monitors by the hundreds and setting longevity records for the species I keep, not a bunch of maybe's and promises from people who want to sell me something.

If I could see the results, I'd be all over it, I just have my doubts and a limited budget.


Personally I don't know that many monitors will breed in tiny tubs, my experience has been the exact opposite, but then I've only been keeping and breeding monitors for 21 years.

If it has one advantage.....what is it?
Thanks.

I'll give u 2 ...

UVA ... Eyesight
UVB ...... White blood cell count ...

I have seen green tree monitors bred in awful conditions infact there was an article on the rep report the other week ...

As for the ifs .... If a keeper has got everything correct uv will b of benefit ... Cheers me dears

http://www.ivis.org/journals/exoticDVM/9-3/Brames.pdf

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by formica

the CFL's in question, where redesigned since that article was last updated, some years ago...i'm sure an article talking about the changes has been posted on this forum somewhere

Hi, it would be great if you could find it!

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by V87

I'll give u 2 ...

UVA ... Eyesight
UVB ...... White blood cell count ...

I have seen green tree monitors bred in awful conditions infact there was an article on the rep report the other week ...

As for the ifs .... If a keeper has got everything correct uv will b of benefit ... Cheers me dears

Hi, the question needs to be; how many generations of those V. prasinus were bred in "awful conditions", rather than they copulated and the keeper incubated some eggs once or twice, if that was the case?
The tests on white blood cell counts were done on animals known to be deficient in those respects, but it seems no details were given as to the conditions they were kept under? THAT`S what makes them in some ways "unreliable" when deciding whether UVB is necessary to keep them healthy, long lived and productive in captivity, the signs are it isn`t necessarily so....
You did go and say you were going to put yourself in the firing line!

[V87]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, the question needs to be; how many generations of those V. prasinus were bred in "awful conditions", rather than they copulated and the keeper incubated some eggs once or twice, if that was the case?
The tests on white blood cell counts were done on animals known to be deficient in those respects, but it seems no details were given as to the conditions they were kept under? THAT`S what makes them in some ways "unreliable" when deciding whether UVB is necessary to keep them healthy, long lived and productive in captivity, the signs are it isn`t necessarily so....
You did go and say you were going to put yourself in the firing line!

With regard to how many generations no idea but if it happens once it will happen again ..... No ?

Like I said when the results come out from you knw where it may go some way to proving uv and it's worth .... Did you read the link I put up ?

Same is said of a lot of husbandry issues .... How much of everything is scientifically proved ?

I put my self in the firing line because I believe uv is if worth to our captives ... They are designed for it over millions of years why would it not be of benefit ?

I'm not saying its a miracle but it if it has one advantage then why deny them it ?

[formica]

cant find it, however notices where issues by Zilla (UV guide had recieved the bulbs by 2009 but have not published results on the wesbite, that i can see...no news is good news? they do at least recommend using the new bulbs)

ADVISORY NOTICE (9/25/2007)

Central Aquatics™, in the interest of delivering the best possible products to the reptile hobby completes on-going “Quality Control” tests of our products.

A recent QC check by our R&D Labs on the Zilla™ Desert 50 bulb has indicated a potential issue with the “phosphor” coating of the Zilla™ Desert 50 Bulb. The phosphor coating is a complex chemical matrix which is utilized to yield the unique characteristic of any fluorescent bulb. In the case of the Zilla™ Desert 50 Series, one of the chemical elements present produces a low-wavelength UVB fluorescent emission. While still in the UVB emission range (280-320 nm), the effective influence of the low wavelength light is more significant than that of higher UVB constituents (those near 320 nm). As is well known, over exposure of UVB light can cause photo-kerato-conjunctivitis in certain species of reptiles-primarily turtles and lizards. The Zilla™ Desert 50 bulb contains UVB light which is required for animal health; however, if not properly used, harmful overexposure may occur. The very low-wavelength UVB light is most pronounced during the first 120 hours of use.

Based on these findings we are reformulating the “phosphor” coating of the Zilla™ Desert 50 bulbs to reduce overexposure risk. Until these reformulated bulbs are available we will be out of stock on the items listed below.

Until the new Zilla™ Desert 50 products are in your store, we would recommend that you stop selling the sku’s listed below and return the product to your distributor or your Central Aquatics™ Sales Representative for credit. Central Aquatics™ will also replace products that have already been sold that contain the effected bulbs.

- there follows a contact telephone number for enquiries, and a list of all the Desert 50 series lamps with their product and catalogue reference numbers, for stockists to check out

and ZooMed...

I do have good news to report. As stated earlier, our compact fluorescent lamps are being pre-burned to reduce the initial UVB output. They are being pre-burned for 168 hours to carry them through the “burn-in” period and reduce the initial UVB output as experienced by the consumer. This also reduces the difficulty associated with using the lamps as there will no longer be a need for separate instructions for the burn-in period and the remainder of the life of the lamp. With this in mind, we will be working on new instructions soon.

I also received our first reformulated phosphor blend on Tuesday, October 30th. We will be producing new sample CFL’s using this phosphor and will forward some to you for testing as soon as they are finished. These samples will not be pre-burned so that we can analyze UVB decay as well as the lamp spectrum ............... (there followed some details of the spectral analysis; also details of a new dome reflector, samples of which we will also be sent.)

Our primary concern is for the health of the animals.
Customers that have experienced problems should contact Zoo Med directly for a replacement or a refund. Please visit Zoo Med Laboratories | #1 Reptile Products Worldwide -- Welcome to Zoo Med (USA) or Zoo Med Europe (Europe) for contact information.

Shane Bagnall
Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc. Research & Development Division
3650 Sacramento Drive, San Luis Obispo, CA 93401

both can be found on the UV Guide website, no updates since 2009 on the website, and I dont have access to my yahoo account anymore so cant access the group (not signing up to yahoo again..but if someone else wants to, the group is: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/UVB_Meter_Owners )

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by V87

With regard to how many generations no idea but if it happens once it will happen again ..... No ?

Like I said when the results come out from you knw where it may go some way to proving uv and it's worth .... Did you read the link I put up ?

Same is said of a lot of husbandry issues .... How much of everything is scientifically proved ?

I put my self in the firing line because I believe uv is if worth to our captives ... They are designed for it over millions of years why would it not be of benefit ?

I'm not saying its a miracle but it if it has one advantage then why deny them it ?

I don`t think it`s enough to say "if it happens once it will happen again", we should have got past that stage by now, surely (guesswork, or "hope for the best")?
These days many of the results are in, there IS a "formula" for repeated breeding success over a number of generations with many species without the use of UVB bulbs as has already been explained. Those results ARE "scientific" in the sense they`ve been PROVEN to work time and time again over the last 15 to 20 years, whether they were published in scientific journals/other or not!

[formica]

whether it is scientific, depends which question is actually being asked, if you are asking, can they breed without UV, then fine, but, I dont think that is the question that anyone is actually asking, its certainly not the question I am asking, and nor is it the question that Dr Fry was asking, or the OP, or any of the scientists who wrote the 3 papers which have been posted to this thread.

There is another question which should be asked in relation to breeding, how successful is breeding without UV, in comparison to with UV? how is it effected?

If you want a scientific answer to something, it must be quantifiable in some way or another, the only question which is being answered in the affirmative, is can monitors breed without UV, which imo, is not actually a very important question in the grand scheme of things - the question which has now been answered with a quantifiable certainty, does UV has a positive health benefit to monitors, has been answered in the affirmative

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Not sure how true that is for morelia. I've noticed mine look much better under uvb flourescents(temporarily) but haven't seen any confirmed experiments where carpets raised under uvb gain permanent color enhancement.

Also on facebook there is this guy who has a 25 year old(if I remember correctly, but still over 20 years) diamond python. It was a common misconception to believe that diamonds needed uvb for health benefits, but itwas actually due to other husbandry mistakes(keeping them too hot). He says he hasn't kept any morelia under uvb and they are all healthy.

No, it wasn't a misconception. Simply because the health benefits aren't visible doesn't mean they aren't real.

[V87]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

I don`t think it`s enough to say "if it happens once it will happen again", we should have got past that stage by now, surely (guesswork, or "hope for the best")?
These days many of the results are in, there IS a "formula" for repeated breeding success over a number of generations with many species without the use of UVB bulbs as has already been explained. Those results ARE "scientific" in the sense they`ve been PROVEN to work time and time again over the last 15 to 20 years, whether they were published in scientific journals/other or not!

With regard to guess work .... And happening again .... it was kinda rhetorical question we have all seen articles over the years of monitors breeding in these kinds of awful conditions ....ie no substrate poor heating poor diet ...

[V87]

Originally Posted by formica

whether it is scientific, depends which question is actually being asked, if you are asking, can they breed without UV, then fine, but, I dont think that is the question that anyone is actually asking, its certainly not the question I am asking, and nor is it the question that Dr Fry was asking, or the OP, or any of the scientists who wrote the 3 papers which have been posted to this thread.

There is another question which should be asked in relation to breeding, how successful is breeding without UV, in comparison to with UV? how is it effected?

If you want a scientific answer to something, it must be quantifiable in some way or another, the only question which is being answered in the affirmative, is can monitors breed without UV, which imo, is not actually a very important question in the grand scheme of things - the question which has now been answered with a quantifiable certainty, does UV has a positive health benefit to monitors, has been answered in the affirmative

This ^^^^^^^^

Originally Posted by jarich

No, it wasn't a misconception. Simply because the health benefits aren't visible doesn't mean they aren't real.

This ^^^^^^^^

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by jarich

No, it wasn't a misconception. Simply because the health benefits aren't visible doesn't mean they aren't real.

I worded it wrong. It was a common misconception to think that Diamond pythons needed UVB to be healthy.